Call for a moratorium on COVID-related topics
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,138
    It is quite amazing to read all these comments. Particularly in light of my own experience.
    My diocese (US) reopened all churches last June. Choirs returned in November and we have always been able to receive communion on the tongue (which I do). We have had no problems and even my school (K-8), which has been open since last August has had 3 cases of covid. Granted, we do wear masks when not singing and people are advised to wear masks. But Masses have had singing and the usual ritual patterns were kept with the exception of the veneration of the Cross on Good Friday. Processions have happened, confessions have gone on and life is pretty much normal. Our attendance has almost returned to normal and donations are where they should be. Granted, we are extremely traditionalists, but I think its an attitude mostly. Sometimes I say to my singers, " What pandemic?". From south Florida...…
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,674
    Florida seems to have handled Covid differently than many other places. It seems to be working for them. In my area, mass "obligations" supposedly will return at Pentecost, last I heard. Unless something drastic happens before then, I guess we will know when we get there.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    Since the Eucharist is the source and summit of Christian life, I think that proper catechesis and adherence to Church Law concerning the faithful's reception is more than just a minor annoyance.

    Once again: http://www.onepeterfive.com/communion-hand-true-story/
    Thanked by 1MatthewRoth
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,674
    Church law allows for communion in the hand. You may not like it, and I may not think it is ideal, but it is legal and allowed.

    The one good thing about intinction - used in the east and in the west before the Latins became too cheap to provide wine to the people - is that no one handles communion.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,687
    I wish, as far as receiving reverently, the solution was as simple as receiving on the tongue. It isn't. Anyone set on sacrilege can easily get around that.


    Shortest answer first: Abusus non tollit usum.


    Once again, I think some have become obsessed with the method, not the intent of receiving communion. Don't dismiss St. Cyril - a doctor of the church - so readily. In the earliest days, people even took some of the communion home with them to have during the week. Oh, no!!! Touched by plebian hands! Oh, the horror. It is not a denial of church law to receive in the hand since church law clearly allows it.


    I will dismiss Saint Cyril when he's cherrypicked — although is it cherrypicking when it's the only source? — and deployed in bad faith, and while it's all well and good that he's a doctor, not all of them are equal. Again, the "original" form described has nothing to do with what happens today, and the practice was eliminated universally within a few centuries because of the problems. it would be more honest if the defenders said that

    Again, gratitude for what you have that you don't realize.


    You've said enough in the past week, and in particular the past forty-eight hours, that has been rude to the point of warranting your excuses, so I will proceed to ignore the lecture on being grateful. I'll take that from my parents and my confessor. Perhaps my closest friends can tell me too. But I'm not going to take this kind of stuff from grumpy and rude people on the internet who know absolutely nothing about my life or the state of my soul and my spiritual life.

    In any case, I've gone longer than just about all of my friends in the US without Mass ( from March 17 through all of April, the first several weeks of May — let's just say that I got lucky and was able to go back before the French government officially allowed public worship again) so I know what it's like to not have the sacraments. But, so long as I could otherwise confess and go to Mass, I would rather not receive regularly than receive in the hand. I don't think that this is an unusual or shocking thing, and it's not ungrateful.


    Concerning patens, at the church where I worked in music for 20 years, patens were always used for both communion on the tongue and in the hand. In my eastern church, a cloth is held beneath your chin.

    No patens or cloths? What sort of heathens have you been hanging around?


    I've been to the Byzantine liturgy on a number of occasions, and there is great variance in this, unfortunately.

    And even Bugnini thought that the paten should be retained; mention of it was in the GIRM until 2002, where it was required only for intinction, which, unless you're a traditionally-minded priest, tends to be interpreted as "abolished except for intinction, when it's required." Of course, it was already de facto abrogated, but the law at least would have supported its advocates.

    In any case, I don't particularly care about what one or two churches do when the vast majority use neither and where the vast majority of people advocating for communion in the hand not only do not know about the cloth but are arrogant enough to think that you're crazy for calling for it.

    Also, I agree with Corinne about Archbishop Roche's interpretation of Cardinal Sarah's letter.

    ETA: the asides about the "Latins" are cheap, grating, and unedifying.
    Thanked by 1JacobFlaherty
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,925
    But, so long as I could otherwise confess and go to Mass, I would rather not receive regularly than receive in the hand. I don't think that this is an unusual or shocking thing, and it's not ungrateful.
    Echo
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,674
    No offense, Francis, since you know I think highly of you. To me that seems like the Old Believers who would rather die than make the sign of the cross with three fingers rather than two. I think I can pick my battles much more carefully than that.
    Thanked by 1a_f_hawkins
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,925
    @CharlesW

    How careful should we be with the very Body and Blood of the King of Kings who has Himself, on His own, been given into our very hands!?

    When we stand before the throne and there, many priests, bishops and more who are judged to have given Jesus up to satanists for desecration, non-believers for sacrelige, and even His followers who chose to impugn and blaspheme the honor and dignity reserved for the King of Creation, I will take my chances... for the least I will have done by His grace, is defend His honor, even at the expense of not receiving Him bodily. So, as I pick my battles, I think this is hill worth dying upon, as opposed to a hell consigned to living within.
  • CatherineS
    Posts: 690
    Since we're all untangling these knots together, I'll just chime in one one thing @chonak said:

    -- comments that the bad judgment shown during the Amazonia synod (the "Pachamama" affair) is enough to undermine confidence in Vatican statements about practical matters


    Sir, with all respect, this incident left me agape, and I have never recovered. I practiced a variety of occult and pagan traditions before my conversion, and do not take such things lightly. I was gobsmacked to see anything remotely pagan taking place in a Catholic church, in the presence of the Pope himself. I would never, never dare such blasphemy. I wouldn't wish the nasty repercussions of pagan practices on my worst enemy. It's all folkloric and adorable until you try to extricate yourself from the relationships. Kind of like being married to a charming but sadistic husband whose dark side only comes out if you disagree with him.

    I know God is very merciful, but it would be awfully presumptuous to flounce about messing with other religions and literal pagan idols when He has specifically asked us not to.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,687
    To be fair, and I don't mean to be ironic about this or whatever, but my thought is that the pope was mildly uncomfy with the whole thing too. Had they burned the stupid thing instead, he probably wouldn't even have taken time to feel bad.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,674
    We have had this discussion before, but...

    Christ came to dwell among us and be one with us. Elevating him to an untouchable position, enclosing him in a golden box, and making him as remote from us as possible is not what he is all about or why he came. He is not European royalty and never asked to be treated as such. Somewhere that all went off the rails and the church during the Renaissance really over-did it.

    CatherineS, I never understood what that statue was all about.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,528
    burned the stupid thing
    Indeed if lines aren't drawn, next thing you know there'll be frescos of Apollo in the Vatican!
    Thanked by 2CharlesW bhcordova
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,674
    And Apollo will be naked to boot.
    Thanked by 1bhcordova
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,925
    Christ came to dwell among us and be one with us. Elevating him to an untouchable position, enclosing him in a golden box, and making him as remote from us as possible is not what he is all about or why he came. He is not European royalty and never asked to be treated as such. Somewhere that all went off the rails and the church during the Renaissance really over-did it.


    Christ

    IS

    The Golden Box...

    most par excellence!

    ()

    Nonetheless, He has invited us to be right there inside the centre of such in perfect communion with Him.

    Let us all purge ourselves so we can even dare to set foot!

    ()

    He is Universal Royalty...

    [“e”urope (with a very small “e”) is just a laughable particle in the microcosm of His most unfathomable vastness...]

    The honor He demands is from ALL OF HIS universe(S) (of which there are most likely an infinity thereof... ) for He has no beginning and no end...

    ()

    Pride has thrown US all off the rails, but He alone exists as the Train Without End.


    () ()


    +

    -[Railroad Crossing... ]-

    *

    -[Red Flashing Lights... ]-

    $

    -[Bells Clanging...]-

    ~

    Cross at Your Own Peril.

    ~%~%~%~%

    Footnote: All naked Apollo’s are most welcome to join all the naked pachamamas in the muddy bottom of the Tiber. From there it is a one way trip into the fiery abyss.

    To learn a little more about the abyss, click here now!

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/abyss
  • Elevating him to an untouchable position, enclosing him in a golden box, and making him as remote from us as possible is not what he is all about or why he came. He is not European royalty and never asked to be treated as such.


    says the Byzantine....
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,925
    lol
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,372
    I can see that there is a place for complaning on this forum, I certainly have perhaps abused that, because this is one of the few places in our weird profession where others can understand. But let's not attach fellow posters or stigmatize groups of fellow Christians. We really need to support and pray for each other and indeed the body of Christ as a whole.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,528
    Apollo … Pachamama

    And don't forget Santa Claus (is it possible we're on the wrong side of the war against Christmas?).
  • TCJ
    Posts: 828
    On Communion tongue vs. hand, both priests at my parish (not trad) agree that on the tongue is much more sanitary than on the hand. They say that amount of times people touch them with their hands is uncountable (happens all the time), but it's a very rare occasion that they touch a person's tongue. Let's stop pretending that Communion on the hand is sanitary. It isn't.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,687
    I'm for communion on the tongue, but I'm wholly unconvinced by this argument. It's not about touching, it's the droplets or particles or whatever the term is, and the libs are right about this. It's just that it's a risk that we must take.
    Thanked by 1Schönbergian
  • TCJ
    Posts: 828
    Actually, we've been told that it is because of people touching their masks (where all the droplets collect). If moisture can collect in a mask, it can certainly form on a person's hands who has just touched it. And guess what everybody has to do right before receiving Communion?
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • davido
    Posts: 631
    Droplets, particles, shmarticles...

    The masks are theater.
    I don't have the virus. The priest doesn't have the virus.
    Thanked by 4TCJ tomjaw francis stulte
  • TCJ
    Posts: 828
    Oh, I agree they are just for show. But if you already believe that then you have no need to be convinced of the practicality of COTT vs. CITH in the great COVID debate.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,687
    Well, I hope that people are removing their masks with the strings, not by touching the front.
  • TCJ
    Posts: 828
    Based on my observations outside of Mass, almost everybody touches the mask itself at some point, whether while removing it, putting in a pocket, grabbing it from where it's sitting, etc. I have no reason to think that behavior in church would be any different, although I don't see people from the organ bench.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,076
    Man, I'm glad I don't have to worry about that since I received my second covid shot. Just think for the simple price of FREE, you too can be free of worry about covid!
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    Interesting. "Experts" are still suggesting mask-wearing for those "fully" vaccinated.

    However, others are still advising against masks:
    "Long-term consequences of wearing facemask can cause health deterioration, developing and progression of chronic diseases and premature death..."

    "The existing scientific evidences challenge the safety and efficacy of wearing facemask as preventive intervention for COVID-19. The data suggest that both medical and non-medical facemasks are ineffective to block human-to-human transmission of viral and infectious disease such SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19, supporting against the usage of facemasks." PubMed: Facemasks in the COVID-19 era

    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,528
    Oh my. If I evaluate that paper on grammar alone:
    Is has been hypothesized that facemasks have compromised safety and efficacy profile and should be avoided from use.
    I can allow myself to feel a little more sanguine about my chances of suffocating prematurely in the grocery aisle instead of the ICU, though.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    Yes, I often wonder if I should offer my (non-professional, but very OCD when it comes to published works) copyediting services to people.
    We found some typos on the Vatican website, though, so what can one do?
    711 x 429 - 504K
    Thanked by 2Schönbergian tomjaw
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,674
    My sister is receiving her second dose of Moderna tomorrow. If she survives, I may look into the vaccine - or maybe not. I'm pretty unpredictable. I am hearing that a third shot may be necessary in a few months since the protection is not that long-lasting, also the virus may/will mutate by then.

    bhcordova, did you have any bad symptoms or reactions from taking the vaccine?
  • TCJ
    Posts: 828
    Just a note:

    The vaccine isn't free. It just means that the government will be obtaining the money in another manner, such as taxing you more or devaluing your savings by printing money. I would be a much richer person if the government would stop giving me free stuff.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW tomjaw
  • Is it just me, or did the call for the moratorium on covid-related topics become a discussion of covid, itself?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,674

    says the Byzantine....


    The eastern tradition has enough differences that comparison is difficult. For example, there is no tradition of eucharistic adoration in the east. In fact, some of the more right-wing Orthodox even consider it idolatry. Some of the sacred gifts are reserved for distribution to the sick and elderly, but the tabernacles are used for that purpose, not for adoration. Different culture.

    Communion in the hand/on the tongue: Intinction is the form of communion in the east. There is no other. But, in the west, communion in the hand is forbidden when intinction is used. I knew an elderly Latin priest who got around the communion in the hand thing by doing intinction, only. Sharing a chalice as in some churches, is not all that sanitary. No, there is not enough alcohol content in the wine to kill germs.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,674
    The vaccine isn't free.


    No, it isn't. I haven't seen anything from the government that doesn't have a cost attached to it.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,159
    The masks are theater.


    Like most Government programs, requirements, and regulations.
  • I, for one, would be overjoyed to see intinction used more universally in the Latin world. It would satisfy both those on the "liberal" side who get apoplectic if they're deprived of the ability to receive both species, as well as "trads" who desire that we only receive on the tongue (I am one of these). Additionally, as Charles says, it is far more sanitary than "common cup". AAAAAND it would reduce the amount of Extraneous Ministers of Holy Communion (if you'll forgive my snark). That's a good many birds with only one stone.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW CHGiffen
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,925
    ummm... did you know that when you eat flesh you always get blood with it? it's not possible to separate them.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,925
    Is it just me, or did the call for the moratorium on covid-related topics become a discussion of covid, itself?
    O jeez, CGZ, this had me in stitches... perhaps why the thread is being sunk! It's because COVID will never go away!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,674
    ummm... did you know that when you eat flesh you always get blood with it? it's not possible to separate them.


    Bread costs much less than wine. If you can find a reason to eliminate or restrict the most expensive item, you have saved a considerable sum. I suspect the reason for bread only is more economic than theological. YMMV.
  • Charles,

    Cynicism aside, is it possible there were other practical reasons?

  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,674
    Could be, but what were they?

    Does anyone remember the imitation Frankincense that was developed for use in the mass? It was much cheaper than the real deal. It also was full of wood shavings, stunk to high heaven and put out clouds of toxic smoke. Cost can sometimes be the factor in practices that are less than desirable.

    As an aside, when the EF mass started at the parish, the priest was using the "Roman incense" mentioned above. It was so horrid, we were able to convince him to get some decent incense from one of the eastern supply houses. The complaints largely disappeared. It cost more but was well worth it.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,925
    Does anyone remember the imitation Frankincense that was developed for use in the mass?
    O yea... Cainincense... I remember!
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,076
    bhcordova, did you have any bad symptoms or reactions from taking the vaccine?


    Charles, I had a sore arm for a few days from the first shot and the second shot. However, some people do come down with flu-like symptoms. FYI, I had the Moderna vaccine.