Calling it quits from my church
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,466
    We will continue to pray for you. Many of have been in you situation. May God give you healing and comfort.
  • I have found that the Holy Spirit gives us the wisdom to know when we need to make a move, and the grace and fortitude to actually do it.
    Thanked by 1CCooze
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,722
    C.O., I'm so sorry this has happened to you. I once experienced something slightly similar. I believe I've told this story elsewhere on the forum, but here goes:

    I once played for a church that was a national place of pilgrimage and had special indulgences. I was hired in by a traditional priest of anglican heritage who encouraged me to play beautiful hymn arrangements, introduce chant to the parish, encouraged me to receive kneeling on the tongue and did all of advent and lent versus deum, distributed at the altar rail he had reinstalled, and we did latin ordinaries during Advent and Lent as well. There was MUCH to be thankful for, especially considering this was (obviously) a N.O. parish.

    One sad day he was reassigned to a parish in the nearest major metropolitan area and was replaced by a Thai priest who came to the US as a political refugee. I'm not sure the exact circumstances of his seminary training, but within TWO WEEKS of arriving, use of the altar rail was completely prohibited, the altar was stripped of all but two of the candles, I was no longer permitted to chant (even simple english propers as prelude to the entrance hymn, and certainly not at communion), he no longer spent Saturday afternoons in the confessional (and poor pilgrims would find me in my robes and ask where the priest was... I'd have to walk across the street to the rectory and ask him to come over!) he had people with no liturgical role whatsoever sit inside the sanctuary (one Sunday—I kid you not—he put out folding chairs and had the sacristans sit shoulder to shoulder with the tabernacle facing the people... he ceased using the pulpit and wore the ugliest vestments we owned (the ugly cotton ones hidden in the back of the closet from the 80's that should have been burned), he wouldn't sit in the presider's chair, but the smaller deacon's chair, and I can go on and on. It was tragic.

    I started noticing strange things, and I regularly had to stay at the organ and not receive at communion because I was SO upset at what was happening... I knew I had no business receiving our Lord in that state as to do so would have been sinful. At one point I wrote a long letter and personally delivered it to him, in the hopes of addressing much of what was happening. It was a calm, well-reasoned letter that appealed to conciliar documents (rather than older, more authoritative sources) that sought to bring some of the abuses to his attention, show why they were so, and encourage him in his priestly ministry; to let him know that we wanted to have him as our pastor but simply hoped that some of these issues could be addressed. I wrote it in letter form so that my thoughts could be better presented and more cohesive, not to hide, and as I said, I delivered it by hand and looked him in the eye and asked him to prayerfully consider what was in the letter. I left the sacristy that day, and the sacristan opened it and read it to him. I am grateful for this, as I now have a witness who has attested to others (and affirmed to Father) what I wrote. Abuses continued, but things were more tense than ever.

    I was screaming inside every weekend. Twice I showed up and the organ was not how I left it. The second time it was patently apparent that the priest had auditioned someone in my absence to replace me. There were only two keys to the organ: mine, and one locked inside the sacristy. It was obvious someone else had been at the instrument while I was away. I decided to resign effective Christmas day (2-3 weeks away). I would get them through the holy day. I asked to speak to the pastor after mass that weekend with witnesses from the parish council and the parish secretary.

    I said very calmly to Father that I was aware he had been seeking my replacement and that it was obvious to both of us that we had different ideas about how best to conduct the sacred liturgy. I therefore thought it best for both of us if I tendered my resignation effective Christmas. He rose, without speaking a single word to me, and walked out. The secretary followed. I sat in the office for a few minutes with members of the council and we discussed various things... a few minutes later, the secretary came back, handed me a check, told me not to come back, and then asked another employee to follow me out as I gathered my things. It was unbelievable. I now joke I was "quit fired".

    I found out later that he had discussed dismissing me to the parish council at one point and they pleaded with him not to; they all wanted to see me stay and was glad that I was there. So I'm told: one of the reasons he sought my dismissal was for "flagrant insubordination for insisting on kneeling to receive communion on the tongue" (as is my right according to canon law... and we never discussed it; I simply continued kneeling after others stopped, and I always went up into the sanctuary to receive right away so I could begin the communion antiphon as soon as possible, so I wasn't receiving "normally" like everyone else anyway).

    Long story short: what followed was a period of a few months where I attended the TLM exclusively (hour, one-way) including an exquisite Christmas Midnight mass. I had to detox. I was just wrapping up my MM to be an organist as a career and suddenly found myself never wanting to play organ for a church again. That period of a few months of detachment was some of the happiest time of my life and exactly what my soul needed. Eventually I was put into contact with a different novus ordo parish with an excellent pastor and traditionally-minded parishioners and what followed were some very happy years, despite modest circumstances. There is light at the end of the tunnel. Leaving today is undoubtedly going to be good for your soul. Take heart.
  • Carol
    Posts: 849
    The only advice I would give is to just go. I would not "demand to see proof" of the complaints. That could cause an escalation in this priest's behavior and he might speak ill of you elsewhere. I would just say that since you and he didn't see eye to eye, it would be best for you to stop volunteering. That's it. You are not going to change him and you could cause yourself problems.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I think the hardest part of leaving is being away from friends. It does affect your relationship with them. Sometimes, it even ends the relationship. You may want to throw the pastor into the parking lot and drive over him and never care all that much. But leaving friends is hard.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Serviam's tale is so sad. It's not just sad, it's disgusting that such priests exist in very great numbers. It goes, as well, to show that the Church is, always has been, and always will be an ancien regime entity, a feudal caste system - in which the clerics of all orders in too many instances rule by ukase without reference to past councils or popes - or even canon law. For anyone who isn't a cleric absolute obedience isn't merely expected but imposed. However, the clerics themselves are often in obedience to no one, certainly not the pope or the council, and maybe not their own bishop - who doesn't really care too much what his underlings do as long as the coffers are full. True, we have (trumpet fanfare here) Parish Councils now - these are fig leaves which have not a whit more tenuous a voice than is pleasing to the reigning duke, um, er, I mean priest or bishop. It's a part of the ancien regime that never went away. It will always be with us - you know its familiar fruits - Grand Duke Conrad loves music and has maintained a stellar orchestra and a brilliant court, and a chapel with the best boy trebles to be had (some may even have been kid-napped!). This goes on until Grand Duke Conrad dies. His son, Otto, is artless and dismisses the entire musicians and chapel. He lives only four more years, and his son, Conrad II puts it all back (unless he denudes it even more). The value of these things to the populace (and even the courtiers) is a matter of no account. It's all a matter of what the self-referential grand duke wants. It should be noted, though, that the grand duke may very well be in disobedience to the emperor, yea, even plotting against him. But, the duke's own people? They are as fodder. This is the Church - by no means everywhere, but in far, far too many places. Hence, there is no formal, consistent mass culture or praxis for the voiceless people who deserve better than what they are getting. No, just whatever pleases the local Roman governor and the satraps who manage his village and neighbourhood parishes - each carving out as much independence as he can. A perfect picture of the ancien regime. It lives.
  • redsox1
    Posts: 217
    I’m sorry to hear about this situation. Yes, it is all too familiar.

    My pastor is retiring, effective July 1. I’ve been at my parish for 10.5 years. My pastor has some musical quirks, but he has pretty much let me run my program the way I see fit and has treated me, and my family, well. We really love it here. We’re a pretty significant parish in the archdiocese, so I’m hopeful we’ll get a good pastor and we’ll continue to move forward. There’s a part of me, though, that’s scared to death! All the work we’ve done can be erased in an instant.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,466
    MJO I am sad to say, that is a most accurate description I have heard in a long time. Whether you have a good experience in your employment is entirely due to the quality and humanity of the cleric in charge. Unfortunately as MJO attests, we can be hired by a fine priest, enjoy several years of happy work and then he is transferred and another kind of priest appears...
    It always strikes me how absolutely little power the Catholic in the pew has, despite all this theology we hear about "being empowered by their baptism".
    I know you will jump on me, but it is definitely not this way in other church lands. If a Methodist or Lutheran church seeks a new pastor, that person has to come and "audition" for the community. Then, the community will either approve or not. Often, several candidates will try out, in hopes of achieving a good fit. Much thought is given to the prospective pastor's theological bent, what kind of worship praxis he desires etc...
    Why in the world this could not happen in the Catholic world is beyond me. Despite canon law, the laity has absolutely no power to choose their priests, bishops or cardinals. Think about it, it is the only institution in the world that does things this way. Just something we have accept if we work in the Catholic church. Ok end of rant.
  • Yes, Greg, not only do these congregations have a large say (Anglican), or an abslolute say (most others) in the choice of new rectors or pastors, but the liturgy and music are sacrosanct and are intrinsic to a parish's being. No new priest or minister changes it one whit. He is there to serve them, not himself. A case in example would be Houston's own Christ Church Cathedral. From it's inception in the XIXth century through to today it has had a consistent and ever more exemplary program of excellent choral music from organist-choirmaster of the highest calibre. To a new dean, or a new bishop, it would be literally unthinkable to alter this tradition. And so it is in most normal parishes. Parish traditions, not clerical whims, are greatly prized in the Episcopal-Anglican world, and in many others. And in the Catholic Church it's feudal chaos.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I have reached the age where I no longer put priests and bishops on pedestals. I have also reached the conclusion that I don't have to put up with the bad ones. That in itself is liberating.

    You are quite right, Jackson.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,371
    On the other hand, it was not unkown in the Church of England for a for a new incumbent to change things completely overnight. For example to impose the TLM, illegally, on a conformist BCP parish. :
    The great Fr Bernard Walke describes his introduction a century ago of what we so happily used to call the Western Rite, sometimes known nowadays as the Extraordinary Form, to his Cornish Anglican parish:
    "On that first Sunday after my induction the people of St Hilary flocked to church and found, in the place of a clergyman reading 'Dearly beloved', a strange figure in vestments at the altar with a little boy who knelt at his side. Many were watching for the first time the drama of the Mass. They were there as spectators who watch a play with a symbolism and language unknown to them. Man cries for redemption: Kyrie eleison, Christe eleison, Kyrie eleison. God answers man's despairing cry in the opening words of the Gloria in excelsis proclaiming the advent of the promised Saviour, but still they do not understand.
    "'Whatever is he doing up there now?' they say. 'Can 'e make it out at all?' The summit of the drama is reached when, the whole company of heaven having been summoned to man's aid, the words of consecration are spoken and bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Jesus who offered himself on the Cross at Calvary. They are aware of the silence, broken by the ringing of a bell. 'Did 'e hear the bell? what is that for, my dear?' they whisper. The bell rings again at the Domine non sum dignus. There are a few who kneel in wonder at what is being accomplished; it is for them a moment of prayer such as they have never experienced before."
    (copied from Fr Hunwicke's blog, posted 19 March 2020.)
  • I met with Father today with the intention of handing in my resignation. But alas that did not happen. I am still secure with my decision but need to get more information.

    I was told that Father was summoned to the Bishop's office in person. Amongst other things, he was berated by the chancellor with the Bishop in the room about me and those who I have brought in. Those who would like names and more details can message me but for the sake of anonymity, I will keep things somewhat vague here.

    To my surprise, Father defended me and my commitment to the church. Although he does not agree with my music, Father still cared to defend me on the basis of talent and commitment. The chancellor did not even give him the time of day to defend me and was very severe in his instruction that traditional music was not to be employed at our parish. His exact words for defending this position was that traditional music was "too performance-oriented".

    Anyways, I am still looking at doing Triduum elsewhere. I have written the chancellor a lengthy email including all my music selections for the Triduum. It remains to be seen what will be said. Your continued prayers are, as always, much appreciated. Things are only made more complicated by the constant lockdowns happening where I am.
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,295
    Sounds like your bishop and chancellor are unhinged. What a dreadful state of affairs.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Carol
    Posts: 849
    How did you get this account of what occurred? Are you certain that it is a true, fair representation of what transpired? What an awful lot of "palace intrigue!"
    Thanked by 3CCooze CatherineS Elmar
  • .
  • I am not sticking it out, to be clear. I just did not officially resign. I want to get some answers first. I've written the chancellor and await an answer. But I'm done.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    My first thought, unfortunately, was the same as Carol's.
  • It should be noted that the chancellor has a known disdain for tradition. Any priest caught dabbling in it is shut down immediately. The story is not implausible.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,159
    It is time for you to be paid for your work: not there, but somewhere.
  • I feel a little unhappy about the tenor of some of my above comments about the Church. While there is truth in them about many clerics and the Church in general, I feel that some balance is requisite. In addition to those pilloried (justly) above, there remain too many to number who are a blessing to their people and to the Church, and are believable representatives of our Lord. We cannot thank them enough. I have known monks, nuns, and ordinary people (including some who are not Catholic, pastors and otherwise) who were surely walking saints. While I have met or known some monks and priests who left me amazed at their un-Christlikeness, I have known many, quite many more who left me spiritually richer, and the world a more holy place than it had been before their ministry here. In the BCP and the Ordinariate Use there is a General Prayer of Thanksgiving near the end of Morning Prayer and Evensong which includes this offering of gratitude - '...but above all...for the means of grace and the hope of glory...'. Indeed, if it were not from those holy persons in our midst we would not know of such graces for which to be thankful nor any glory for which to hope. How many can we name who are believable when we go to them like certain Greeks and say 'sir, we would see Jesus'?

    There! That needed to be said.
    I do not retract the above comment, but happily add this one to it.
  • CatherineS
    Posts: 690
    Thank you MJO!
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    To me, the inappropriately behaved priests only throw the superlative ones into even greater relief.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,371
    Perhaps we should consider this from the view of Msgr. Kroetsch , he became diocesan Liturgy Director 40 years ago, and has been promoting his vision of Pastoral Liturgy ever since, from 35 years ago at national level. And yet outbreaks of revolt continue to occur.
  • His exact words for defending this position was that traditional music was "too performance-oriented".


    Meanwhile, bands performing praise-and-worship on a stage near the altar are given a free pass. Truly, clergy who have no training or interest in music shouldn't tell you (or other musicians) how to do the job. I wouldn't tell this chancellor how to do his job; why should he tell you how to do your's?

    I will remember you in my rosaries, @CasavantOrganist.


  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,722
    Little Durufle, I've had the exact same thought before. Praise bands are never up in the loft. Always right down in front putting on a "show". Every. Single. Time. Hands in the air and everything.
  • Serviam, Durufle,

    Praise bands are just humbly feeling the spirit?
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    Perhaps the difference is how much more work has to be put into this so-called "performance-oriented" music.
    However, he who sings well, prays twice.
  • I have officially submitted my resignation today, after much prayer and consultation. My heart is somewhat heavy but I know deep down that it was the right decision.

    Your continued prayers for me, especially for my next job, are very much appreciated.
  • I'm really sorry for you, Casavant. It is heartbreaking to build what you have built only to see it scorned and forbidden. Everyone loses in this sad episode - you, and those who in their astonishing and chosen ignorance sought to eradicate your loving work. My heart goes out to you and I pray that you may find greater joy in greener pastures.
  • CatherineS
    Posts: 690
    Prayers for you!
    Thanked by 1Casavant Organist
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    Ouch.

    I can only say that there are places where things are better, and I hope that one of your dedication finds one of those soon. God bless you.
  • Some post-mortem thoughts:
    1. My chancellor's email to me was completely inappropriate. I sent him an email with my Holy Week list (modified to match Gathered Into One) and he told me that essentially I was not allowed to do it because the people wouldn't be able to sing it all. He had the audacity to call my music a "disservice to the people of God" on the account of their non-participation.
    2. In a follow-up email, he stated quite plainly that "Catholics don't sing very strongly", seemingly contradicting his previous point.
    3. He seemed to be unhappy with the fact that there was more than one singer per Mass, despite a diocesan directive to the contrary, allowing it if we had space for appropriate distancing.
    4. He criticized directly to me the type of music seen as "performative". We have already addressed this topic here but hearing it "from the horse's mouth", as it were, validated my concern.
    5. It is a great tragedy for me not to be able to do Holy Week and Triduum at my church. Even the contemporary musicians were looking forward to hearing my full take on the Triduum Masses with all their Sacred Drama.
    6. I am hopeful that, with your prayers, I will be able to do Triduum at my new church job, taking over sooner than planned.
  • I'm so happy that you are liberated from the tyranny of this willfully cultivated ignorance and brazen defiance of the council's wishes. May God smile upon all your endeavours.
  • Elmar
    Posts: 500
    Even the contemporary musicians were looking forward to hearing my full take on the Triduum Masses with all their Sacred Drama.
    That's the irony of this kind of situation: 'Contemporary' musicans who are real musicians know the difference between good and bad music, and therefore are not at all negative about genres that aren't their preferred one.
  • Not as though it needs to be heard, but I thought I'd share some recordings I made from the last two Sundays before my departure.
    Call to Remembrance - Farrant
    Jesu, grant me this I pray - Gibbons (vv. 1, 4)
    O Help Us, Lord (The Third Mode) - Tallis (yes, I know the rhythms were wrong, not my score)

    Enjoy!
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,722
    Casavant, humble—but mighty nonetheless. If this is your standard fare (I very much presume it is) that priest has made the gravest of mistakes.
    Thanked by 1Casavant Organist
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,722
    Also, I'd love to see that Tallis score. The Third Mode Melody is one of my all time favorites (I heard the voice of Jesus say is a wonderful text for it). I'd be curious to see this text too. It's time I trot this back out with my schola.
    Thanked by 1Casavant Organist
  • Serviam,
    I just sent you the score.
    This has been standard fare for a while now - small but mighty! With so many restrictions, 5 is all we could have. The second recording was 4, with a tenor singing bass due to a lack of an actual bass.
    Thanked by 1ServiamScores
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,722
    I know the feeling. And non-professional / church recordings never truly reflect what it's actually like in the room. My choir sounds so nice (for what they are) in real life, and then I listen to the live stream and cringe because the blend is terrrrible and the natural effect of the room is completely filtered out. At least the people who actually come get a treat. They seem happy too since I've received multiple comments the last few weeks about how nice we are sounding.
    Thanked by 1MatthewRoth
  • Very true. But it doesn't help that our church has no acoustic. So it's a pretty dead sound in the room anyways.
  • I received a call earlier today from one of the other music people (the choir coodinator) begging me to stay. She read the chancellor's email and thought that my proposed program was in line with what he wanted anyways. I did not read the email that way, but that's beside the point. (PM if you want me to send you a copy of the correspondence - I do not want to post or share publicly.)

    I proceeded to say that this was a simple matter of mental health. I have no obligation to the church, since I am a (former) volunteer. I need to look after myself. Those who have been singing for me have told me to just get out of there and I decided that it was the best thing to do.

    If I'd stuck it out as some wished, I'd probably be very unstable by the end of the Triduum. It's an unfortunate thing for me to resign at this time but I can't neglect my well-being and that of my choristers.
    Thanked by 1MatthewRoth
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,722
    I think it's very telling that your singers gave you their blessing to go.
  • Well they get to come with me, so it's a win-win, I guess! Haha
  • Yes sadly...

    Only joking, this whole experience has indeed been very eye-opening, and I'm looking forward to singing in a more welcoming and thankful atmosphere.
  • Massissimo happens to be one of my singers. He's fabulous! He's our "soprano" (very high countertenor).
  • toddevoss
    Posts: 162
    I am puzzled by one thing. I assume you are leaving the diocese. Otherwise, won't the Chancellor and Bishop just come down on you at the new parish (if it streams masses they can "watch")? Also it just takes one letter or email from a crank in the parish.
    Thanked by 1Casavant Organist
  • Yes, I am going to the diocese next door where tradition is much more welcome.
  • What is the diocese?
    Bravo for you.
    When do you begin, and when will we hear examples of some of your new work?
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Yes, I am going to the diocese next door where tradition is much more welcome.
    tradition should never not be welcome. (the biggest giveaway about the lie of the all-inclusive philosophy of the modernists)
  • I was working within the Diocese of Hamilton, Ontario (home of the infamous Gathered into One disaster document) and will be working soon in the Archdiocese of Toronto.

    The ensemble will be rehearsing weekly at my house for the next little while just to keep us singing and seeing each other. We'll be doing it safely, of course, and it's practical since the group is small. But I think it'll give us a chance to start thinking about doing some actual recordings.

    My hope is to be at my new job by the beginning of the Triduum. Palm Sunday would be even better.

    I'll be posting some recordings if I can soon.