Sundays "in" Lent or Sundays "of" Lent?
  • Nisi
    Posts: 153
    Perhaps a small point, but how do you call it?
  • RevAMG
    Posts: 162
    The current Roman Missal calls them Sundays "of" Lent and that is how I call them personally.
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  • Nathan_the_Organist
    Posts: 440
    I think "of" makes more sense. If you count the 40 days of Lent, that doesn't include Sundays. Therefore, you could argue that they technically aren't in Lent.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,315
    They are, it's just that they are not fasting days, though they are nevertheless penitential, up to a point. Generally, the church refrains from kneeling, and so in the traditional rite, the ministers wear folded chasubles, the organ is silent except to accompany the singing if necessary, and flowers do not adorn the altar, but the rubrics for kneeling are not those of the feria: kneeling at the orations, and from the end of the Sanctus (exclusive of the Benediction, sung after the elevation just like with polyphonic settings) through Communion. Instead, they're like on feasts and green ferias, however rare those are.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw CHGiffen
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 998
    In de EF they are called Sundays "in" Lent: Dominica I in Quadragesima. In the OF they are called Sundays "of" Lent: Dominica I Quadragesimae.

    But this is not some novelty of the liturgical reform. For example, in Rupert von Deutz, Liber de divinis officiis (ca. 1111/1112, see Fontes Christiani 33/II, p. 536) I find "De prima dominica quadragesimae".
    Thanked by 2Liam ServiamScores
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    We easterners don't generally consider Sundays to be anything other than celebrations of the risen Christ. They are not penitential.
    Thanked by 3tomjaw francis Paul F. Ford
  • ScottKChicago
    Posts: 349
    Sundays in Lent, per our Book of Common Prayer 1979 (USA Episcopal).
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    The "of" usage has historical roots no less than the "in" usage; neither should be a shibboleth.
    Thanked by 2MatthewRoth xmarteo
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    Yes, according to the revised Roman Calendar (1969) Lent begins on Ash Wednesday and ends before the Mass of the Lord's Supper on Holy Thursday. Sundays are included in the count. That's why we sing "These forty-four days of Lent, O Lord."
    Thanked by 5CHGiffen sdtalley3 Liam bhcordova CatholicZ09
  • CatholicZ09
    Posts: 284
    This wording has been boggling my mind for the past few weeks. Sundays in Ordinary Time are titled as “X Sunday in Ordinary Time,” but for Advent, Lent, and Easter, we use “of.”

    Is there really a difference?
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 998
    'Sundays in Ordinary Time" is of course something specific to the language. In Latin these Sundays are called "per annum", "through the year". In Dutch we have "door het jaar". But in German it is "im Jahreskreis".

    And there are translations with "of": in Spanish, "del Tiempo Ordinario", French, "du Temps Ordinaire", Italian "del Tempo Ordinario".
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    SmVanRoode,

    Ordinary Time, as a concept, came in with the revolution of the 1960s which happened at the same time as the Vatican Council.
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  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    The concept of working sytematicaly through each of the synoptic Gospels came from the Consilium after VII, yes. But the idea of calling that Ordinary Time is just a bad translation in the Romance languages, and English. It didn't appear in the early Missals, where it was "Sundays of the Year".
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,315
    Which is silly, because "de l'année" or its equivalent isn't* new. (edited, whoops).


    In de EF they are called Sundays "in" Lent: Dominica I in Quadragesima. In the OF they are called Sundays "of" Lent: Dominica I Quadragesimae.


    It's a bit of a difference without a distinction that reflects later Latin's love of prepositions, and different ones from the norms ultimately found in its descendant languages. English is not Latin, and regardless of what the BCP might do, most English speakers today would look askance if you said "Sundays in Lent" to name the Sundays because "in" doesn't mean "belonging to" in modern English. You could talk about "Sundays in Advent/Lent/Eastertide," I think, but you're not talking about quite the same thing…
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  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Hawkins,

    You'll notice that I didn't blame the Council, but only noticed that it came at the same time as a revolution.

    About the "bad translation", it could havebeen rescued -- that is, if we had preserved intact the concept of the Church Militant, Ordinary would have preserved the meaning of "lined in ranks, like soldiers", instead of adopting the dreary sense of "humdrum, pedestrian".
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    I was taught the Sundays are OF Advent and IN Lent because the Sundays in Lent are really not a part of Lent since to 'forty days' do not include them. This, of course is by no means whatever to get the notion that they may be experienced as joyous solemnities. Definitely not - they are still IN Lent.

    I have found, in other discussions of this question on our Forum that there are have varying disagreements with this view.
    ___________________________________________

    I'm glad to be back -
    I've been without electricity since Monday, but it was worth it to have sub-twenty degree weather, and actually to get (believe it or not!) a little over one whole inch of snow in Houston. I've saved some in a small vial which I will keep with my collection of snow from around the country. Though the lack of electricity was no fun, I did rather enjoy eating dinner by candle light.
    Thanked by 3tomjaw CHGiffen Drake
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    @MJO
    We are glad you are back, I had been wondering how you were getting on. Glad to hear you are o.k.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    MJO congratulations on the snow.
    I was taught the we, as opposed to the Ambrosians, added the days from Ash Wednesday, precisely to make the forty days, which exclude Sundays.

    CGZ I remember it said that 'of the year' proved difficult for people because their civil calendars already numbered the Sundays. They could have chosen 'of the annual cycle' or something like that.
  • Nathan_the_Organist
    Posts: 440
    MJO, where I'm at we have been having sub -20 degree weather (even colder with wind chill). I would be glad to have 20 above, which is projected for the weekend.

    I find this discussion fascinating considering how small of a thing we are debating. I have said to friends that the two groups of people that debate the most are musicians and liturgists, and church musicians are by far the worst considering we are in both groups. I think this discussion proves my point.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Jackson,

    I'm pleased to hear that you've weathered the storm. A whole inch! (I grew up in Buffalo, New York, of the famous Blizzard of '77 fame. 7 feet in a single storm was not rare, but only uncommon. Here, in California, snow is something other peopleget to enjoy, elsewhere! I don't mean to sound grumpy, but you you ship a few inches this way?

  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    Chris -
    I would love to, but alas - it's already melted - except in the shade.
    Yesterday we even had ice on the streets - it's gone, too... overnight.
    We are told that there may be more next week.
    We'll see.
    If this is global warming I love it.
    I was out of electricity for three days. We don't realise what a fairyland we live in! If the electricity goes out we might as well be in the 1890s, Our lives and our life style are fragile as an eggshell.

    Unbelievable as it may sound, whilst perusing a Houston history book at Barnes & Noble's several years ago I saw a picture of Houston under 21 inches of snow somewhere around 1911. A lovely sight. It hasn't since and likely never will happen again
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,799
    other discussions of this question on our Forum
    My takeaway was that Lent originated as a tithe of 365 days, with Ash Wednesday a relatively new-fangled rounding up. Wednesday to Palm Sunday gives 40 days (but not 40 nights?) in the desert. Counting by sixes and skipping alleluialess Sundays, the Triduum starts on day 39. Is this trying to tell me Palm Sunday is 'of' Lent?
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    In upper east TN the snow pattern has been strange. Here in our valley we have had cold but no snow. Go 50 miles north or west and they were covered up with snow and ice. I have been watching Texas and Oklahoma snow scenes on the weather channel. Prayers for those folks since I know they are mostly not equipped for this kind of weather. I had wondered about you too, Jackson, but is sounds like you have "weathered" it well. I think many are looking into why your electrical grid failed as it did. It will be 50s and 60s starting Sunday here in Knoxville. I'm ok with that since I am not really a fan of winter weather - true southerner here. Seventies year-round would be ideal for me.
    Thanked by 2CCooze Drake
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Jackson,

    You don't have our governor, or any of our liturgy committees or religious education committees, but if you did have them, how would Mass have been allowed to go on, with no electricity to run the microphones or the internet or..... etc?

    In other news, I heard a heart-warming report on NPR this morning about how Texas families had invited others into their homes, rather than let them freeze in their own homes, and grocery stores donating food to all sorts of places and.... it sounded as if Texas decided to show the world how decency works, even (or especially) in time of local and national unpleasantness.

    Thanked by 2CCooze tomjaw
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