Young Catholics and Sacred Music
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Jeffrey Morse mocked ICEL by retranslating "O thou, the central orb of righteousness" as "Hey, you! Middle Ball!" One is beautiful, while the other is not -- which was, I think, Jeffrey's point.
  • davido
    Posts: 942
    On a related note, check out Kanye West’s new 5 track album released on Christmas, Emmanuel. Its interesting. I think he’s been reading our thread for characteristics of sacred music
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Davido,

    Related to whose prior comment?
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,048
    But 70 years later the Latin Ordinaries remain my preference. Familiarity is a key aspect of liturgical participation.

    And Latin Ordinaries will still be sung 70 years from now.

    Praise & Worship - probably not.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw ServiamScores
  • contemporaryworship92
    Posts: 259
    When I was teaching in a Catholic high school, at a school Mass in the gymnasium filled with 1,500 students the music was all P&W, and students were encouraged to use hand gestures during some songs to show their "enthusiasm." The class I brought to Mass included a freshman girl whose father was gravely ill in the hospital, near death (although he lived). The praise band and student leaders were singing "Lord, I Lift Your Name on High" and encouraging all the students to make the "enthusiastic" hand gestures. All I could do was notice the contrast between the forcibly contrived enthusiasm generated by the music and the gestures and my grieving student sitting next to me. If I were her, I would have wanted to run out of the gymnasium and cry and ask God why he hated me so much that everyone else was so happy but my dad was dying.


    All of this is a really bad idea. This sort of thing crosses one of my red lines, possibly multiple. One of my core principles is that I never program music with lyrics that make potentially false statements about what the person singing it is feeling. Anything along the lines of "I feel so in love with Jesus right now" or any other statement of emotion I on principle don't program. Same for telling people how they are supposed to feel or act. People's feelings and actions should be freely chosen as a response to the music, not something we impose upon them.

    The sort of thing described here I would have much less of a problem with if it occurred outside the Mass or any other public liturgy such as adoration and the teens could in theory go freely choose to do something else if they weren't into this thing.
  • contemporaryworship92
    Posts: 259
    And Latin Ordinaries will still be sung 70 years from now.

    Praise & Worship - probably not.


    People are still singing songs today that were the forefathers of praise and worship in their time. For example, How Can I Keep from Singing? was written in 1868, and Leaning on the Everlasting Arms was written in 1887. These songs were written in a style of early Gospel music that has become praise and worship today.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Jclangfo,

    Those songs may be the progenitors of Gospel music, and Praise and Worship music, but neither the forebears nor the issue belong, objectively speaking, at Mass.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    People are still singing songs today that were the forefathers of praise and worship in their time. For example, How Can I Keep from Singing? was written in 1868, and Leaning on the Everlasting Arms was written in 1887.

    Most of the Latin Ordinaries and Propers were ancient not 70 but 700 years ago.

    It always amuses me when people talk about 'traditional hymns' that were written yesterday! Temporarily 'popular'* song might be a better description. *Popular would also mean among only a small proportion of the population.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn CCooze
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    Mr Langlo's scholarship is impressive, but these presumed forebears of P&W were no more fitting for or used at liturgy when they were first spawned than they and their supposed modern mutations are now. This is a red herring - and a badly bruised one at that.

    By the way, I have been asked two or three times (by people who didn't know any better) if I liked praise and worship music, or if I liked what is over here called 'Christian music'. My response was a bright eyed and enthusiastic 'Oh my, I certainly do! My favourites are Alleluia Pascha nostrum on Easter day and Tallis's Spem in alium nunquam habui'. The look on their faces was priceless. It is good never ever to allow certain people a monopoly on the implications of given and otherwise positive verba which their coteries have preposterously abducted, presumptuously commandeered, and whose meanings they have warped beyond reason and then put in partisan chains. ('Charismatic' is another example of this verbal sleight of hand.) "Praise' and 'worship' are far more than, and quite other than, so called P&W music and the industry behind it. Praise and worship is ritual chant, du Fay and des Prez, Tallis and Byrd, Brahms and Bruckner, Howells and Britten, Stravinsky and Poulenc, orthodox hymnody and its composers and authors - and the people who sing it. It is congregations singing masses by Willan et al., and it is sacred organ music from the Robertsbridge Codex to Messiaen and beyond, or, even, spiritually pregnant total silence - the protracted absence of sound through which the attentive heart may hear its Lord. These are Praise and Worship.
    Thanked by 11Elmar Nathan_the_Organist a_f_hawkins Jehan_Boutte tomjaw Schönbergian Chris Garton-Zavesky ServiamScores Viola CHGiffen rich_enough
  • Elmar
    Posts: 506
    ... if I liked praise and worship music ... 'Oh my, I certainly do! My favourites are Alleluia Pascha nostrum on Easter day and Tallis's Spem in alium nunquam habui'
    My favorite P&W song remains (maybe do to lacking repertoire knowledge) the four-brands-of-tea all time hit: "Laudamustee, Benedicimustee, Adoramustee, Glorificamustee..."
    Thanked by 4M. Jackson Osborn Nathan_the_Organist tomjaw CHGiffen
  • davido
    Posts: 942
    Chris - related to the discussion of contemporary music in the sacred tradition vs contemporary music in the P&W non-sacred tradition.
    Or
    A hip-hop convert to evangelicalism is more interested in transcendental music than most Catholics. Kanye is searching for God and explores a cappella Latin texted vocal music. So what is are P&W composers searching for?
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    So what is are P&W composers searching for?

    Money.
    Thanked by 3M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen CCooze
  • davido
    Posts: 942
    Me too. Are they getting any?
    Thanked by 1ServiamScores
  • jcr
    Posts: 139
    Just a bit of history that some of the folks may not be familiar with.

    Gospel music emerged from the revivalist movements of the late eighteenth century and later the late nineteenth century. In the "Gay Nineties" and early twentieth century music imitating popular song of the period was also incorporated into this movement as it had developed. Lots of up-tempo music with triple division of the pulse can be found in this material. Gospel music took off in this direction and was also strong in some churches in a Country/Western style as well. These sources gave us quite a repertoire ("Love Lifted Me..." to "This World is not my Home, I'm Just-a Passing Through"). This all had a good bit of popular success in churches and a concomitant commercial success as well.

    During the fifties a man named Ralph Carmichael, a Baptist fellow and professional musician, became the seminal agent in another phase of this kind of material. He was a church musician and a Hollywood arranger (Debbie Reynolds' arranger) who would travel with evangelists to lead music for revival meetings. He said that he noticed that whenever he rode with these preachers in their cars that they never listened to "Christian radio stations", but put on popular music instead. He decided that there was a place for a popular Christian music. This was the birth of CCM and the rest is history we have all seen at least a part of.

    The Gospel quartet had been a part of the gospel music scene for a long while, but this gave them some new stylistic range and also made the "crossover artist" a relatively new phenomenon. As we are all aware, the CCM industry has been a commercial success and has produced quite a number of the crossover performers who used it as vehicle for self promotion and career advancement.

    Note, however, that revivalist music was intended for the tent meeting, not the worship of the faithful. Unfortunately, all this material has found its way into the worship of most churches today. Some welcome it as a way to draw non believers. Others regard it as a blight on the worship landscape. The "I", "Me" self focused nature of the texts is a clue.

    There is reason to regard commercially successful movements such as this with suspicion and reserve. Popular music must, as popular music, appeal to the lowest common denominator. The worship of God should appeal to the highest moral, ethical, and aesthetic standard. There is an inherent incompatibility here.
    Thanked by 5M. Jackson Osborn bhcordova sdtalley3 CHGiffen irishtenor
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,885
    So much to comment on! (All good things.)

    And Latin Ordinaries will still be sung 70 years from now.

    Praise & Worship - probably not.

    Your mouth to God's ears!


    One of my core principles is that I never program music with lyrics that make potentially false statements about what the person singing it is feeling. Anything along the lines of "I feel so in love with Jesus right now" or any other statement of emotion I on principle don't program.

    This is an excellent rule, and one that I will formally adopt hereafter with the exception of traditional works that imply penitence in the heart of the singer; that is, that we are to express sorrow for our sins as we sing. This exception, is the Church putting words into our mouths in the hope that we pray them, if not feel them.

    It is good never ever to allow certain people a monopoly on the implications of given and otherwise positive verba which their coteries have preposterously abducted, presumptuously commandeered, and whose meanings they have warped beyond reason and then put in partisan chains.

    This is an excellent point. This tactic is typically leveraged politically (and I include this in the Church...) which is a good indicator of its potency when used 'well'. It's a two way street.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Anything along the lines of "I feel so in love with Jesus right now" or any other statement of emotion I on principle don't program.


    Doesn't this, effectively, rule out most of the Praise and Worship genre?



    Thanked by 2ServiamScores tomjaw
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,885
    I believe that was the point, Chris.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Serviam,

    You're right, probably, but even reading the original a third time, I'm not positive that this was the intent.

  • contemporaryworship92
    Posts: 259
    Doesn't this, effectively, rule out most of the Praise and Worship genre?


    If you go through the CCLI top 100, my guess is that about 20% of the songs would be flunked by my rule. As a praise and worship choir director, I'm looking for needles in haystacks. There are many good praise and worship songs out there, but there are many more bad ones. I've been keeping spreadsheets for years of songs with good texts and have a pretty large library built up by now. And even with that, I often use folk music and traditional hymnody when I need a text I can't get from p&w.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,311
    @a_f_hawkins, OF, as the question is only relevant in the context of the new rite, which explicitly bans polyphonic Sanctus settings (a pity!) and the Canon has to be said aloud; how aloud is aloud depends on whether or not you care to sing a polyphonic setting in its integrity.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    MatthewRoth thanks. I have never heard that done in England in the OF. However early this year I did at an Ordinariate Mass in London, Feb 2nd at the Assumption & St Gregory (Mozart Spatzenmesse). Congregation totally confused about the posture to adopt, some of them probably about what was happening. I was taken by surprise, and unsure about posture. (No problem if one adopts the 'standard' of mainly standing through the Canon, but in England that makes one conspicuous if one is in the pews.)
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    Mr Hawkins -
    What Ordinariate parish was that that you attended? We are told that in Britain the Ordinariates are as likely to celebrate with the OF as they are the Ordinariate use. That really doesn't compute with me. What is the purpose of having an Ordinariate use if one doesn't follow it to the exclusion of others? Would Byzantine rite Catholics (who have the gorgeous and rich rite of St John Chrystostom) ever use the Roman rite? I think not - what would be the point of it? Here across the pond we use the Ordinariate use exclusively - it is part and parcel with our raison d'etre and our identity.

    One has heard, also, that the Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham in England has been received with, to put it mildly, very 'cold shoulders'. This is in direct contrast to our reception in the US and Canada, where, for the most part, we have been received with 'open arms'. (I can't say what the reception has been in the Australian Ordinariate of the Southern Cross, though I have heard no negativity about it.
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  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,885
    the new rite, which explicitly bans polyphonic Sanctus settings


    I seemed to have missed a memo. Where can I find info about this?
    Thanked by 1CCooze
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,084
    I don't believe that's correct; I don't think the Church has banned such settings in the OF. The Church has banned any music or singing from occurring at the same time the priest celebrant is saying the Eucharistic Prayer in the OF; cf. GIRM and Redemptionis Sacramentum.

    For that reason, polyphonic settings of the Sanctus that take several minutes to sing are ill-advised for use in the OF because the Eucharistic Prayer cannot begin until the singing of the Sanctus/Holy has concluded, which is a different practice than in the EF.
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  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    Jackson - The Assumption & St Gregory, Warwick Street, is the OLW Central church (non-Cathedral as Msgr Newton the Ordinary, being married, is not a bishop). It is liturgically (one of) the most varied in England, offering all three Mass forms, at least before the latest restrictions, which in London are changing weekly. Since the promulgation of DW: the Missal it has moved slowly from a couple of DW Masses to:- just one OF Sat vigil, one EF missa cantata, one EF missa lecta, and eleven DW Masses, one solemn.
    On my increasingly rare visits to London, I ususally try to get there, and make encouraging noises about the direction of change. However I deplore exclusivity in liturgy, I am delighted to see Oratorians offering EF & OF in Latin alongside OF in English.
    You may be interested in their proposed music, on this page : http://warwickstreet.org.uk/bulletin/
    Thanked by 3M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen tomjaw
  • Erkenwald
    Posts: 16
    Possibly the English Missal, a translation into prayer-book English?
    Thanked by 3M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen tomjaw
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    Jackson - The Ordinariate in England is hampered in various ways.
    It has at most two churches of its own, and otherwise occupies territorial diocesan churches. That brings a cure of souls with no Anglican connections or inclinations.
    Most CofE anglo catholics simply adopted the Roman Rite, while remaining in the established church. eg Fr Hunwicke has used the TLM for preference throughout his ministry, and was taught it, alongside BCP, when training AFAIK.
    Many anglo-catholic priests swam the Tiber before AC, and were incardinated in their local diocese.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    The OF doesn't contemplate an exclusively choral Sanctus. It does explicitly contemplate that the priest AND faithful offer it together, at the same time. (This is not news - it's been in the documents for quite a while, shall we say.) GIRM 78 (b) "The acclamation, by which the whole congregation, joining with the heavenly powers, sings the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy). This acclamation, which constitutes part of the Eucharistic Prayer itself, is pronounced by all the people with the Priest."

    This reflects the additional dimension to the Sanctus of might be though of as an eschatological prolepsis: a liturgical foretaste.
    Thanked by 2MarkB a_f_hawkins
  • davido
    Posts: 942
    I’ve never viewed this rubric on the Sanctus as a problem for polyphony. Anybody is welcome to recite the prayer while the choir sings it just like the priest does in the old mass.

    Really strict rubricism seems contrary to Catholic history. The problem since the council has been that the liberality with rubrics has all been exercised by those who are not orthodox.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    That's one creative interpretation.
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,084
    But unlike in the old Mass, in the new Mass the priest may not proceed with the Eucharistic Prayer until the choir (and congregation) has finished singing the Sanctus.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,311
    Well, as I said, it's not a problem in a number of major churches, not known for liturgical traditionalism except for certain aesthetics.

    As to the Ordinariate, the actual problem is that the English parishes were worshipping with the missal of Paul VI, because the Anglo-Papalists felt that the old Mass was prohibited and that they should go along with what Rome does; one sees this for example at the Anglican shrine to OL of Walsingham. The Book of Common Prayer is, for many of them, meaningless, as they never worshipped with it as Anglicans.

    Now, this is all simply cribbed from Fr Hunwicke, but it seems to be mostly accurate, though Hunwicke's own ministry is a bit strange; the BCP was celebrated precisely, but with the ceremonial of a traditional Mass, and, for the Church of Ireland, with the vesture expected of an Anglican priest. I believe that Hunwicke has spent some time in Ireland and ministered in Church of Ireland parishes over the years.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    The other problems the Ordinariate have, is that we have several waves of Anglican priests joined us, but not all have joined the Ordinariate. The other problem they have is that many of the congregations have not followed their priests into the Catholic Church. They I suspect are attached to the ancient buildings more than the Faith.

    The BCP has few friends, the progressives don't like it and the Anglo Catholics have long used the Missal of Paul VI.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    [NB Thread drift]
    The BCP Communion Service certainly had few friends. Anglo-catholics always thought its theology deficient, and protestants had little interest in it, and in England traditionally rarely celebrated it.
    But as I frequently say, there is more to liturgy than Mass, and in particular, much of our problem with the OF is having no other regular parochial liturgies to meet the spiritual needs of the people. And here BCP does have something very solid to offer, over 400 years now of demonstration that BCP Matins and Evensong can sustain parish life. I have not yet seen sufficient about the new Divine Worship: Daily Office to be sure, but I look forward eagerly to getting a (Commonwealth Edition) copy 'early in the new year'.
    I hope to see something suitable for a Parochial Office (as the ⁁ monastic LOTH is not), something we have not had since the Quiñones model was suppressed.
    ⁁ truncated
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  • Jehan_Boutte
    Posts: 264
    I hope to see something suitable for a Parochial Office (as the ⁁ monastic LOTH is not), something we have not had since the Quiñones model was suppressed.


    Why do you think the LOTH is monastic? In some way, I agree, but would you like to give the reasons why you think that?
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    [Drifting farther]Some Anglo-catholics added prayers said privately during the Communion service to make up for the deficiencies. Thomas Wilson, Bishop of Sodor and Man 1697to 1755, published his prayers.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    Jehan - I am not a historian of the Office, and I probably have large gaps and misunderstandings in my knowledge, but -
    Sacrosanctum Concilium 84.
    L’office divin, d’après l’antique tradition chrétienne, est constitué de telle façon que tout le déroulement du jour et de la nuit soit consacré par la louange de Dieu.
    That is the basic purpose of a monastic communiy. Over the centuries an obligation to a form of this has been imposed on clergy not living in community, and LOTH reduced the amount to be said considerably, but never having the needs of the average member of the faithful as a primary consideration. When I was small, the pious faithful would try to meet their need by communal recitation of the Rosary, which is not a 'liturgical' form.
  • Jehan_Boutte
    Posts: 264
    And yet, as far as I know, the Western Office always had a "monastic" shape, even though it was quite different from the Benedictine Office (and even the LOTH in some ways).
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,325
    I don't know about anyone else, but I'd be interested to see some examples of which particular P&W songs @jclangfo finds most suitable for the NO Mass. Perhaps I'll be convinced!
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  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    I would like to see not merely the names of examples, but what set of criteria he uses to include or exclude.
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  • KARU27
    Posts: 184
    Jclangfo wrote this, and it jumped out at me:


    There's an apparent subtext in the above quote that I really disagree with, and that subtext is that emotion in liturgy is bad. On the contrary, emotion is why we have music in the first place. If this was a purely intellectual endeavor, we could read the words and think about them and not need music at all. We use music because it unites the entire person, intellect and emotion, into a single act of worship. Good liturgical music should make you feel emotionally convicted by the text of the song.



    Hasn't Benedict XVI written about this in the "Spirit of the Liturgy"?
    My understanding is that liturgical music is not about emotion, and it certainly should never be emotionally manipulative. I'm sure others know exact quotations better than I do.
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  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    I should perhaps let jclangfo speak for himself, but there is a vast difference between being emotionally expressive and emotionally manipulative. OTOH he wrote "music unites the entire person, intellect and emotion" & OTOH he wrote "People's feelings and actions should be freely chosen as a response to the music, not something we impose upon them. " and "I never program music with lyrics that make potentially false statements about what the person singing it is feeling."
    My understanding is that liturgical music is not about emotion,

    Is not the Gregorian Alleluia an expression of wordless jubilation?
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  • Jehan_Boutte
    Posts: 264
    Liturgical music should not be about emotion first. But fitting liturgical music always has some emotion. I always feel joy when hearing the "Victimae Paschali laudes" at Easter, or sorrow when I hear Victoria"s "Popule Meus".
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  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    Yes, it's a mistake to assume that sacred music has no emotion. What it does not have is subjective emotion - that is, we are left to contemplate whatever the music represents on its own, rather than it telling us what we should feel. We sing about Jesus's resurrection, not how happy Jesus's resurrection makes us feel, because the latter is self-evident and the former is what is truly important.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn rich_enough
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,084
    Maybe the difference depends on which is prior: emotion or intellect. Liturgical music should have forming the intellect as its prior aim: through beauty and goodness and truth, which are transcendentals that the intellect can grasp.

    As embodied creatures who have emotions, the intellect can cause emotions in us, which is not the case with angels, who are pure intellects.

    It's not that liturgical music won't or shouldn't cause an emotional response; it's that the emotional response should be subsequent to and dependent upon a prior intellectual movement. Even if someone doesn't understand the Latin words in a beautifully sung piece of polyphony, their intellect can grasp the beauty in the music's form and they can be emotionally moved as a result.

    That's much different from emotionally manipulative music, which attempts through words or musical techniques to compel an emotional feeling for its own sake.

    This video by the Dominicans of the Western Province explains well the difference between Protestant and Catholic worship as, in large part, a difference between seeking feelings versus satisfying the intellect informed by faith:
    https://youtu.be/JvMFXsmvJmU
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  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    Well, I imagine this provokes emotions. A viral video from Barcelona:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXFhkmyVRgM

    Set in the magnificent basilica of S Maria del Mar in Barcelona, one of the glories of Catalonian Gothic architecture (PanoSphere link: https://tinyurl.com/ybdecgx2) - the austerity of the architecture is a perfect foil for what they did visually and aurally here.


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  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
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    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • contemporaryworship92
    Posts: 259
    I don't know about anyone else, but I'd be interested to see some examples of which particular P&W songs @jclangfo finds most suitable for the NO Mass. Perhaps I'll be convinced!


    I would like to see not merely the names of examples, but what set of criteria he uses to include or exclude.


    The primary criteria I use is the text of the song. Where possible, I try to find songs that set something that is part of the Lectionary text for the given Sunday. My second criteria is that the music should be beautiful, sacred, and communicate the sense of the liturgical action (a communion song should have a different feel than a closing song). My third criteria is that the song should be amenable to congregational singing.

    Some examples:

    10,000 Reasons by Matt Redman, Psalm 103: 1-2, 8-9
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtwIT8JjddM

    Christ is Risen by Matt Maher, 1 Corinthians 15:55 and Paschal troparion
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBqPXvP6aso&ab_channel=EssentialWorship

    Come to the River by Housefires, Isaiah 55:1, Psalm 63:1, Psalm 34:8
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKVHGi1iRLE

    Even So Come, Revelation 22:20 (KJV), good song for Advent
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuTb0LsRRTQ

    He Shall Reign Forevermore by Chris Tomlin, samples In The Bleak Midwinter and Handel's Messiah
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-P8pUCV5MI

    No Longer Slaves by Bethel, Romans 8:15, Galatians 4:7
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDnA_coA168&ab_channel=zachwilliamsVEVO

    Restless by Audrey Assad, Confessions of St. Augustine
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNWOC4qJeZA

    Set Me As A Seal by Matt Maher, Song of Solomon 1:1, 2:2, 2:14, 3:1-4, 4:9-11, 5:5, 8:6-7
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMUehTuoTCs


    Thanked by 1MarkB
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Just listened to/watched Redman's 10,000 reasons

    The video is made in a church w/out a crucifix, but the text is apparently addressed to God, Himself. (Abp Sheen spoke about that somewhere).

    The fact that a text from Scripture is used may not be enough, since (as we read in the Gospel) Lucifer can quote the Psalter!

    Could that group fit in a choir loft (or make music otherwise without being the center of visual attention)?
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
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