All are Welcome - USCCB Statement on Hymns
  • The serious answer is that catechesis has become so bad that most Catholics don't even know, or care, what is or isn't "heretical".
    Thanked by 1Don9of11
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,164
    I think most music directors focus on the melody and don't really consider the message involved. This is because, to them, music is there to fill up the silence and not an integral part of the Mass.
  • The all or nothing attitude from many is wearying. I welcome the document.
    Thanked by 1ServiamScores
  • Polska,

    I think most people here welcome the good that is in the document, but sincerely wish that it included more or, perhaps, expect that it would show the connection between proper doctrine and beautiful music: we don't have to choose between that which is proper doctrine and that which is objectively beautiful.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • A link contained in an earlier post to this thread led to an article indicating that the USCCB Committee reviewed 1000 hymns/songs for their report. Where might I find that list of titles and their composers? Is there a source that gives the criteria the committee used to create that particular subset of music for review? The diocese has been addressing this issue for some years now but it has been a challenge to eliminate these songs from the repertoire of music we use at Mass. I would like to present my parish liturgy and music planning committees with some background rather than just the report.
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,079
    I don't think that list was made public, but I suspect it consists of the songs in the major hymnals published by OCP and GIA, which account for about 95% of the music resources used in American parishes.

    BTW, spiffy, professionally formatted version of the document here:
    https://www.usccb.org/resources/Catholic Hymnody at the Service of the Church_0.pdf
    Thanked by 1Don9of11
  • Keiran
    Posts: 11
    The Bishops are going OTT! "Lord of the dance" heretical! The "Holy People" obviously means the scribes, pharisees, and the ruler of the synagogue who objected to Jesus healing on a sabbath.
    In "All Are Welcome" they object to "water, wine and wheat". "The image of the Eucharist is of an ordinary banquet where one drinks water and wine and eats wheat bread. Further, water is not on the same level as bread and wine as matter for the Eucharist".
    Who thought it was? You can interpret this as baptism followed by Eucharist.
    The bishops pay lip service to poetic license, but for the life of me I cannot see why they allow "bread" for the consecrated bread, but object to "wine" for the consecrated wine.
  • Kieran,

    I shall have to go back and look at the bishops' statement again. Maybe someone was paying attention to the texts this time?

    Around here (for what it's worth) OTT is likely to be mistaken for Ludwig Ott. What did you mean by the abbreviation OTT?
    Thanked by 1mattebery
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,164
    I believe she meant Over-The-Top (I had to google it)
  • Kieran,

    If they're going over the top, above and beyond the call of duty, it's because they live in a target-rich environment which has been presided over recently by a sharpshooter pacifist.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,508
    Bread is scriptural (John 6), but I think it's important to use qualifiers when speaking of the Eucharist as bread in hymns: living bread, bread from/of heaven, angels' bread, bread of life...

    Even so istm that in our imperfect catechetical situation, the word is normally best avoided.

    I'm so glad to see the doctrinal content of hymns being supervised by the bishops!
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    Many many years ago I remarked to a priest that his teaching experience must make it easier to preach. He said not, the problem with preaching is that you are bound to utter heresy. And he explained that whatever you say, someone is going to misunderstand. This is much easier to correct in a classroom where you can ask questions to check.
    Thanked by 2ServiamScores Liam
  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 708
    I read Fr. Joncas reflections and I think he is missing the point that the document on hymnody is trying to make. Honestly, i got more out of reading this small article by Richard than from Fr. Joncas reflections.

    I believe, if you are someone who speaks with authority, its not necessary to list your credentials, your reputation as an authority precedes you. His point to make clear to other denominations the intent of the document falls way short when using terms like transfinalization and transignification these simply muddies the waters. I got the distinct impression that since he has composed and arranged a lot of music that some or maybe more than some of his compositions might not be acceptable. That being said, he has a nice disclaimer.
    Thanked by 1MarkB
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,079
    Fr. Joncas' absurd insertion of "sic" multiple times in this footnote quoting the catechism gives away his game:

    21. “By calling God ‘Father,’ the language of faith indicates two main things: that God is the first origin of everything and transcendent authority; and that he [sic] is at the same time goodness and loving care for all his [sic] children. God’s parental tenderness can also be expressed by the image of motherhood, which emphasizes God’s immanence, the intimacy between Creator and creature. The language of faith thus draws on the human experience of parents who are in a way the first representatives of God for man [sic] . . . We ought to recall that God transcends the human distinction between the sexes. He [sic] is neither man nor woman: he [sic] is God. He [sic] . . . transcends human fatherhood and motherhood, although he is their origin and standard.” CCC, #239.


    Bottom line is that Fr. Joncas and everyone at PrayTellBlog don't want traditional, precise and clear language used in liturgy nor in hymns because traditional, precise and clear language obstruct their squishy modernist wishes to redefine Catholic faith through the back door of making the language of prayer ambiguous.

    For example, consider the first stanza of this new song lyric by Sarah Hart, who is one of OCP's most celebrated "artists":

    THE HOUSE THAT LOVE IS BUILDING
    In the house that Love is building,
    There is room enough for all,
    Endless welcome in her rafters,
    Mercy singing through her walls.
    Here is refuge for all people
    From every tribe and tongue.
    In the house that Love is building
    There is room for everyone.


    Full text here:
    https://www.ocp.org/en-us/blog/entry/the-house-that-love-is-building

    In the first place, "Love" capitalized seems to be a reference to God. But the Love in the lyric is referred to with the pronoun "she", giving it a female character, and nowhere must it be concluded that "Love" means "God". The ambiguities in that song make it absolutely unfit for use in a Catholic setting, and it is most especially unsuitable to be sung at Mass.

    Based on his article, Joncas could rush to defend Hart's lyric by saying that one need not ascribe a false interpretation to the lyric because, since the First Letter of John says that God is love, using "Love" as a name for God is acceptable. And the use of feminine pronouns to refer to "Love" is justified because in Latin the word "love" has a feminine gender. Oh, they can come up with all kinds of weaselly excuses to get the camel's nose in the tent.

    If ambiguous language such as that is allowed to be sung at Catholic worship, it undermines Catholic faith in the minds of those who hear and sing those lyrics.

    That's the concern of the committee that wrote the USCCB statement, and it's a valid concern because too many modern hymn texts have been written by people who lack adequate knowledge and understanding of Catholic faith to adequately give poetic, lyric expression to elements of Catholic faith. They write what they feel or what makes them feel good. Or the lyrics have been written by people who deliberately seek to undermine or change what Catholics believe through the use of ambiguous language.
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    In the first place, "Love" capitalized seems to be a reference to God. But the Love in the lyric is referred to with the pronoun "she", giving it a female character, and nowhere must it be concluded that "Love" means "God". The ambiguities in that song make it absolutely unfit for use in a Catholic setting, and it is most especially unsuitable to be sung at Mass.

    This is obviously a deficient song, but to give the benefit of the doubt, "her" in this stanza very much seems to be referring to the "house" (presumably the Church), rather than Love. This makes the sudden change in the third stanza all the more confusing, where "her" does indeed refer to Love. A "masterpiece of hymn craft" it is not!
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,309
    I won't say "everyone" at East Germany PTB but yes, point taken.
    Thanked by 1a_f_hawkins
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,079
    Point taken about the first stanza, and I'm glad you went to the third stanza which indeed is more problematic:

    Oh, the song that Love is raising
    Is of pure, unending light
    In the voices of her people,
    rising to eternal skies.


    The use of "her" in reference to "Love" is tighter there.

  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,185
    Ye gods! what awful poetry. I prefer my doggerel more virile.
    Thanked by 1Schönbergian
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    The comments here are quite good. However having read the document, it is clear that it is a HUGE step forward. The document is primarily concerned with texts, not really musical style or value.
  • Ghmus,

    So long as it's just a first step, it's a huge step forward. A previous effort to establish a national Catholic repertoire for a national hymnal left the work in the hands of the very people who had caused the train wreck in the first place. It was akin to asking McCarrick to police sexual predators or Arturo Sosa to police heretics.
  • rollingrj
    Posts: 351
    a_f_hawkins, Ralph was referring to some Propers which texts are not taken from the Bible. The "Alleluia" for the Christmas Day Mass is one such example.
    Thanked by 1a_f_hawkins
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    True that over 20% of Alleluia verses in the Graduale Synopticum are non biblical. But for the other chants it is below 6%. And they seem to fall into two distinct groups: saints who have some particular reference to their activities, and major ancient festivals. Presumably for the latter there was a corpus of established texts before the 7th century systematisers started work.
    The principle of adding new texts only from biblical sources still seems a good one, apart from specific saints.
  • denroden
    Posts: 25
    21. “By calling God ‘Father,’ the language of faith indicates two main things: that God is the first origin of everything and transcendent authority; and that he [sic] is at the same time goodness and loving care for all his [sic] children. God’s parental tenderness can also be expressed by the image of motherhood, which emphasizes God’s immanence, the intimacy between Creator and creature. The language of faith thus draws on the human experience of parents who are in a way the first representatives of God for man [sic] . . . We ought to recall that God transcends the human distinction between the sexes. He [sic] is neither man nor woman: he [sic] is God. He [sic] . . . transcends human fatherhood and motherhood, although he is their origin and standard.” CCC, #239.


    I was discussing this with my wife at dinner. not knowing my 10 year old son was listening. He says "Does he have a problem with "and He will raise you up?""
    Thanked by 2MarkB drforjc
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,079
    That's brilliant! From now on I'll have to have my choir sing:

    "And He [sic] will raise you up, on Eagle's wings."

    But we only sing that song at funerals, and only when it's requested, which is happening less frequently.
    Thanked by 1drforjc
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    OTT is Britishspeak. They have some great expressions: my favorite: "now don't get your knickers in a twist"!
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,079
    I don't usually agree with what the PrayTellBlog publishes, but this article is very good:
    https://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2021/06/07/continuing-the-conversation-the-usccbs-guidance-on-hymn-texts/