Organ during EF Rorate Mass
  • cathedralorganist
    Posts: 6
    Our parish is offering an EF Rorate Mass this Advent season, the first in a very long time. It will likely be a Low Mass. Is the organ permitted to play in a solo capacity during a Rorate Mass? I know its role is restricted during the Masses of the First, Second, and Fourth Sundays of Advent. I can think of lots of nice pieces for such a Mass!
  • cathedralorganist
    Posts: 6
    My apologies, I just now saw the discussion from a few days back about organ during EF Advent Votive Masses. If there are any specific thoughts about organ during a Rorate Mass, I would be glad to hear them.
  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    We can say with certainty that solo organ playing is allowed on third-class feasts in Advent and Lent, so it is reasonable to suppose that it is allowed at higher ranking votive Masses, but a third-class votive Mass is not exactly equivalent to a third-class feast (the latter takes precedence), so whether the organ is allowed is uncertain. I know that the FSSP received permission to "upgrade" the Rorate Mass, but I don't know what rank it actually is. If you're at an FSSP parish and your priest says it's celebrated as second class, I would think it's perfectly fine to play the organ.
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  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 392
    According to our organist who looked this up last year, the answer is yes.
    Thanked by 1madorganist
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,962
    If the Gloria is sung, solo organ music is allowed. This goes for all feasts that might fall during Advent and Lent, the First Friday and First Saturday Masses, Our Lady on Saturday — properly a feast and not a votive Mass though this isn't obvious if you go to Mass only and don't pray the office — and thus applies to the Rorate Mass.

    Solo organ is also permitted at Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament.
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  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    So in the context of a LOW MASS, if the Gloria is said, then organ playing is permitted, period?
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,962
    Yep. For the same reason, the altar can be decorated as on feasts, with relics and flowers.
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 892
    Related question. For a Solemn High Mass on a Sunday of Advent when solo organ is not permitted. What happens during the procession before the Introit? (and the recessional at the end)

    1. Process in silence and begin the Introit when the priest begins the prayers at the foot of the altar
    2. Start singing the introit sooner to accompany the procession and add additional psalm verses as needed
    3. Sing a hymn
    4. Play the organ anyways "because Mass hasn't technically started yet"
    5. something else?

    I've starting singing for a Latin High Mass. It's typically low key and the priest simply enters from the sacristy, but the other week he surprised me at the last minute by processing in with a deacon and sub deacon. I opted for option 1 above since it was a last minute decision. What is customary?
  • FSSPmusic
    Posts: 217
    "Customary" depends on the place. 2 is normally my personal preference, but 1 & 3 are certainly legitimate as well. Depending on the size of the church, the length of the Kyrie, and how fast your celebrant prays, an additional repetition of the introit antiphon between the verse and doxology could be enough. Adding organ music before or after the Mass because it's not technically part of the Mass strikes me as contrary to the spirit of the liturgical regulations, if not the letter. A Marian antiphon or hymn at the end works well in place of an organ recessional.
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  • Arthur Connick
    Posts: 494
    Hey Matthew, the ferias of Advent are all 3rd or 2nd Class. Isn't Our Lady's Saturday 4th Class? Just interested in what you have on why Our Lady's Saturday should be celebrated in Advent (happy to be schooled!). Also, what are your thoughts on celebrating Rorate or Simbang Gabi masses without there being at least a long standing custom.
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  • GregoriusGregorius
    Posts: 18
    Just out of interest in Poland according to the permissions in force in 1962, every church, chapel and semi-private oratory were permitted to sing one Rorate Mass every day during Advent and had the rank of a 1st class votive (with Gloria & Credo). This was subsequently changed with an indult for 10 years by Pope Paul VI in December 1963 to a 2nd class votive (with Gloria & no Credo), still permitted every day during Advent.
    Thanked by 2madorganist Arthur Connick
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,962
    So I threw Our Lady on Saturday in there for the sake of the point, though I think that you're right, Our Lady on Saturday doesn't have a place as such, with its office, in either penitential season, but it would after Septuagesima, which, even if solo organ music is still permitted, might be frowned upon in Masses of the season, and I know the ICRSP ordo calls for removing relics before I Vespers of Septuagesima. So, in that case, one could put relics back out and play the organ without any scruples whatsoever if the following Saturday was of the BVM.

    But the question of tradition is fair. I had forgotten that the Mass Roráte cœli désuper is now of the third class in the 1962 scheme. https://propria.org/votive-masses/

    Now, I usually am inclined to what came before, that is, whatever is not of 1962 with few exceptions, but in this case, I think that this is so widespread, and is good, expanding something legitimate and grounded in real liturgical custom, so I don't see why it can't be continued, as the authorities haven't said anything against it.

    The problem with singing the Introit first is that it assumes there's no Asperges on a Sunday, which I think is wrong if the Mass is sung sort of by definition: how is this not the principle Mass, even if you've established the Mass pro populo at another time?

    But on a weekday it'd be perfectly fine, though I'm always inclined to silence myself, then at the end, after the Marian antiphon and (in France) often some version of the Je vous salue, Mary, a hymn. And if you're not singing the Asperges, well, not my monkey, not my circus.
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  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    @MatthewRoth, here is a previous thread about what might constitute the principal Sunday Mass. In case we've misunderstood and the Asperges was sung too, it might be best to clarify that unlike in the novus ordo, the introit is never sung before the Asperges or Vidi aquam in the TLM. In that case, a processional hymn would be a suitable option.
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  • Arthur Connick
    Posts: 494
    I agree that it's overall a good trend.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,962
    Right, madorganist. My assumption is that, if someone has thought about singing the Introit first, then there's no Asperges, but I could have misunderstood the initial comment. The comments in the linked thread are basically my thoughts, but SJC is also one of the few places where there's actually a good argument for the NO Mass being the principal Mass, whereas in most places, the TLM is on at least equal footing attendance-wise and is likely more solemn. Yes, a low Mass could be the principal Mass, but that wasn't the idea, and if it's chanted, then there's no good reason to keep the low Mass as the principal Mass…
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  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,372
    This strikes me as an apples/pears comparison.
    In the NO/OF the Asperges is not a separate rite but part of Mass as alternative to the forms of Penitential Rite, and can be part of any Mass. It comes after the Introit/Entrance. Whether that affects the issue of which particular service is the principal Mass I cannot say.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,962
    It's not, though, as nobody is actually comparing the two Masses in that way, nor saying that one would do the Asperges at any or all of the NO Masses. It's just that in many parishes where the TLM is offered on Sunday, it's in a diocesan parish where the pastor has not officially decided that one or the other is the principal Mass, but I think that singing a TLM is argument enough, unless you go out of your way to make the other Mass equivalent. The principal Mass need not be a high Mass, though it's supposed to be, and even in low Mass central, with Masses every 45 minutes or hour on a Sunday, the principal Mass was a high Mass.
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  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,372
    MatthewRoth - all I mean to imply is that, in the absence of clear directives, the form of the OF Masses in the parsh gives no guidance and is not relevant. Unless, perhaps, the Mass celebrated pro populo is clearly elevated above the others.
    If the parochial/deanery/diocesan/provincial/national authorities are silent the question devolves to the celebrant presumably.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,962
    Well, I disagree. You really ought not to celebrate a sung Mass in the traditional rite and not make it the principal Mass in order to get out of the Asperges; I've seen that, and it's insane to me, because the rubrics demand that the Asperges be done on Sunday, and they also demand that the Mass be sung, and only if this cannot be done even recto tono should the principal Mass be an entirely low Mass.

    The Mass pro populo need not absolutely be celebrated on Sunday and within the bounds of the parish, so it's a bit misleading, and I think that if a pastor has decided to celebrate that Mass with less solemnity — in the Musica sacra sense — and with frankly less dignity than a TLM celebrated in the parish, whether or not he's the celebrant of that Mass, then he's got some serious thinking to do.

    So what I'm saying is that it is possible for another Mass to be the principal Mass, but I think that it's foolish to make that argument if you're clearly celebrating the TLM with more care and effort than your other Masses, and I certainly understand the challenges that might impede such, which makes it less of a decision than the simple reality, whether or not it can be changed. In that case, however, a pastor would be wise to try to ensure that the TLM is in the morning and that he celebrates it as often as he can.
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  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,372
    MatthewRoth - if that's to me, no, I think we agree. I am only trying to say "leave the OF Masses out of the debate, they are not relevant to the question".
    I say this as someone who would attend the OF for preference, the EF if I were needed (e.g. to sing).
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,962
    Oh, to answer the original question with some more detail: this is one thing that the 1962 missal makes complicated, because the tunic and dalmatic are worn on every occasion when violet is worn. However, in the pre-1962 missal, there's a clear distinction between Christmas Eve and that of the rest of Advent: the ferial preces aren't said at the office, and the dalmatic and tunic are worn at Mass. Therefore, solo organ music and flowers are both licit, but if folded chasubles are prescribed, as on the other days of Advent then the preces are said — except on Sundays — and there is no solo organ music nor flowers. So, "no Gloria" is not quite a good rule, but it's helpful nevertheless, because the Gloria tells us that a Mass is to be celebrated more like a feast (even if the melodies proper to the ministers are not exactly like those on feasts) which admits of solo organ and flowers.
  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    @MatthewRoth Solo organ playing isn't allowed on Christmas Eve unless it falls on a Sunday - which is to say, unless it's not a fast day.

    @cathedralorganist Surely the Rorate Mass has already been celebrated by now. What did you do about the organ?
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,962
    According to which rules? The pre-1962 rules apparently allow it, and I just went digging (I've done this at least once before, because I forget about it until December). Stercky says that one may play the organ (v. II, nº 260, p. 219), citing the following references: Rub. Gen. Miss., tit. xix, n. 6;
    Cer. Ep., c. xiv. n. i; S. R. C., n. 2365, ad 4. This includes the Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday after Gaudete Sunday, but not the other days, as those are Ember Days (that is, the dalmatic and tunic are worn in lieu of folded chasubles, but in violet, at least until the SRC gave an indult in the 1930s or 50s — I can't remember — which the 1962 missal seems to have subsequently reversed)

    Fortescue also says as much (p. 255 of the 1918 edition — the first, I believe).
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  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    I stand corrected! Allowed, whether it fall on a weekday or Sunday, S.R.C. 2365, 4.
    Thanked by 2MatthewRoth tomjaw
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