Contemporary style antiphons
  • Chris, I'm afraid I don't quite understand where you are going with the La Marseillaise example.

    By adapting the piece I meant playing only a few measures for the introduction instead of the whole refrain or only singing it one time through with the whole choir instead of the cantor singing and the the choir repeating it. But you are right that in the style of these antiphons that can only be done to a certain extent and will vary depending on the individual antiphon.
  • Andrew, thanks for the answer to my question regarding obedience to the bishop. As I said I am far from an expert and what the bishops authority covers.

    Out of curiosity, how well has the adoption of your bishop's new rules gone? Have you noticed any major changes in the congregation and how that react to these changes?
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,159
    For many parishes there was little change because that's mostly what they were doing anyway. One may discern that much of those rules affects only those who are trying to do more traditional things, and they are in a minority.

    We had been singing the Communion Antiphon from the choir, before starting the Communion hymn: this stopped, and those who hadn't liked it were gratified. We had in another place been chanting the Entrance Antiphon (from Weber) on either side of the Entrance Hymn: this stopped along with the rest of use of Weber's chants, and those who hadn't liked them were pleased. All the Deacons I know complied, but I've no idea how readily. Some servers I know withdrew from altar service, but m sure they were replaced.

    On the whole, though, I think there was never anything in the way of major changes.
  • lmassery
    Posts: 405
    Andrew, what a terrible Bishop. I’m sorry
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • Elmar
    Posts: 500
    What a bunch of micro-managing ... forbidding people to genuflect before receiving communion? Seems that some bishops have too little real work to do...
  • Elmar,

    On the one hand I strenuously disagree with you. Think, for example, if the bishop forbade the holding of hands during the Our Father, or the un-necessary use of Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion, or the lay hand-raising in orans posture, or any number of other silly things which the bishop could (and should, IMO) forbid. Discipline in the liturgy is one of the bishop's explicit responsibilities.

    On the other hand, I wholeheartedly agree that banning genuflecting (period) is a bad thing. A proper 2-knee genuflection at the altar rail is entirely in order.

    Since I have three hands, I'll add this: Wuhan Flu has given the bishops time to think about priorities. How many of them have jumped on the social justice bandwagon -- at so many levels -- giving to Cesar what is God's, and to God what is Cesar's?
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    There's not much to say about the situation in that Diocese other than it's been spearheaded by the same polemical individuals that have presided over incompetence and liturgical ignorance, led a mistaken (to be charitable) campaign against liturgical practices they don't like, and whose reach goes further than the Diocese's borders in many cases. I don't believe Bishop Crosby is directly at fault.

    These are the same clowns who told me it "wouldn't be a good idea" to use the Gradual Psalm in Latin at an OF Mass after admitting it was licit, with no real justification given.
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,159
    The side topic here was a bishop's authority over liturgical options, though. Whatever the motivation and clownng behind the scenes, fact is the Bishop solemnly invoked his authority in the above matters, referencing canon law and conciliar documents, not to mention Scripture, to do so.
  • Bishops' 'authority' and priests' 'authority' have been referenced several times in this thread. In the cases in which it has been mentioned that authority itself is questionable. We need to make a clear distinction between 'authority' and 'power'. They are not the same. 'Authority' issues from and conforms to Church teachings, Church documents, Councils, and Papal teaching. What is done that does not conform to the express wishes and commands of these is done, imposed, by sheer power which presumes to go beyond its authority. Just above here the forbidding of kneeling is mentioned. There is no authority for this - only the imposition of the likes and dislikes of one who has power, but who is acting beyond his authority. We are all quite aware of similar uses of power in the service of that for which there is no authority - such as the forbidding of Latin, chant, organs, our musical heritage, and on and on, for the doing of which there is not a shred of authority, in fact it is directly contrary to authority. Authority has been given for the fostering and preservation of these things - not for suppressing them. Every thing that bishops and priests do is not necessarily 'authoritative', 'authentic'. There isn't much we can do about it - except to tell them so. And, if all of us stood up and told them so it might made a difference.
    Thanked by 2Schönbergian Elmar
  • When talking about the bishop's authority in regards to liturgical options, I stumbled across this article today.

    https://www.ccwatershed.org/2016/07/17/bishop-anthony-taylor-ad-orientem-letter/

    The relevant quote from the article: "This letter (PROTOCOL NO. 564/00/L) specifically addresses whether a bishop can forbid "ad orientem.” They stated that, while exercising his rightful role as “moderator of the Sacred Liturgy in the particular Church entrusted to his pastoral care,” the Diocesan Bishop can neither “exclude nor mandate the use of a legitimate option.""

    I think that this quote containing quotes from the Congregation for Divine Worship answers out question.
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,724
    Just listened to one of the samples... All I can say is I doubt this would sway a single soul into appreciating chant in any way (as was suggested earlier in this thread). That theory seems so far-fetched as to deserve laughter. This sounds like classic emotional prot dribble that just happens to have a liturgical text dragged—flogged, bleeding, and naked—behind a horse as it runs around the town square.

    Nothing about these settings will instill any sense of sacred.

    Nothing about these settings will encourage you to consider chant in any way. (Those interested in the texts will have already made the discovery of true chant anyway.)

    Nothing about these settings feels "Catholic" in any way (apart from the lamentable fact that they resemble the dribble that is all-too-frequently pandered around the US).

    Nothing about these settings has even basic recourse to traditional church music, be it chant, polyphony, hymns, or otherwise.

    To me these settings are akin to bad liturgical architecture. You can call a brick box a "church" but it no more resembles a beautiful Bavarian baroque masterpiece than my dirty sneakers. These may have liturgical texts, but they no more resemble proper liturgical music (of any of umpteen varieties) than the power ballads I hear on the radio.

    I promise I don't mean to be cruel, but I really fail to see how this is an improvement in even a slight way. It's a bit like making a vow with your fingers twisted behind your back. "Well, I said the words at our wedding!" [But did you mean it?]
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,372
    ServiamScores - I agree the 'music' is execrable, detracts from the words, and is clearly unsuited to Catholic worship.
    There is as I said above just one positive; that using the texts the church proposes is far better than musician or preacher choosing texts to suit their own purposes.
  • Nathan,

    The Marseillaise (as you're aware) is the hymn of the revolution (although it didn't start out that way), and is played solemnly for state occasions and the winning of Olympic medals.

    Kazoos and saxophones aren't frequently thought of as solemn-music instruments.

    Could kazoos and saxophones play the piece? Probably. Would it resemble itself? Maybe. Would this be a good thing? No.

    The chant antiphons' texts are (originally) beautiful. The manner in which they are set is... arguably.... something other than beautiful, and not usually considered suitable for transcendent work.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,768
    I suspect Serviam is absolutely right about these pieces doing far more discredit to the texts than the texts lend credit to the music.
    using the texts the church proposes is far better

    It seems clear to me the church desired apt texts to fit the three-year lectionary and was willing to shoehorn the Graduale into that scheme in order to preserve the treasury of existing music while leaving room for new repertory to be added to the 3 existing stopgaps. /advocatus diabolis>
    Thanked by 1ServiamScores
  • Chris, I actually wasn't that familiar with The Marseillaise. I figured you were going in the direction of instrumentation making the music sound wrong, but I wasn't sure.
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,025
    In my survey of parish video streams, I'm surprised how many of them are using these contemporary OCP antiphons.

    Hard to know whether the collection has benefitted from the pandemic restrictions on choirs and congregational singing, as well as from the decision of many parishes not to purchase disposable pew missals/hymnals this liturgical year -- thus the antiphon collection is seen as a practical convenience during unusual times -- or whether these modern antiphons are genuinely being preferred to "Gathering songs". When things return to normal it will be interesting to see whether the collection is still used.

    I'd estimate that at least 20% of parishes I sample use these new OCP antiphons. The only other antiphon collection that I hear being used is the Ignatius Pew Missal, but that's at about 10% of parishes.
  • vansensei
    Posts: 215
    Those contemporary antiphons are... well. They want the atmosphere of a non-denominational church without the baggage or theology.
  • lmassery
    Posts: 405
    We use them weekly at our contemporary style Mass with the “Praise Team.” Heres a summary my experience with them so far:

    1. They work better for entrance because twice through is enough.

    2. For communion, feels awkward singing just the antiphon several times through. They need verses, even seasonal ones would help.

    3. They have accomplished the goal of making sure everyone in the parish and especially the praise team knows what antiphons are and that we should sing them.

    4. I dont believe these are “congregational”. Authors claim they are, using repetitive melodies. But there are 30 or more melodies repeated, so not that repetitive. Perhaps after 4 or 5 times through people would catch on and mumble through, but by then you’re ready to move on.

    5. I like that they don’t repeat words needlessly or alter texts. They are exactly the Roman missal texts.

    6. They are easy to sing for cantors and have useful harmony parts. And easy piano parts. Useful recordings on ocp website too

    7. Some weird things- why did they set the extremely long simple form of Palm Sunday and not the solemn form that everyone uses. And why skip All Souls’ Day just because it isn’t a solemnity?

    Overall, highly useful for those who would otherwise not use antiphons at all.

    Thanked by 1a_f_hawkins