Diocese of Fort Worth, TX issues guidelines for resuming public Masses
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    You also hear that Trent condemned vernacular liturgy, NOPE. Though they did pronounce anathema, which I suspect still applies, on anyone seeking to ban Latin.
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    Trent in its early stages was a chaotic mess. The council later regrouped and actually accomplished something. Some of what is attributed to Trent actually happened under Pius V after the council had ended.

    I think our eastern churches accept the doctrinal proclamations as solid, but often more applicable to the culture of the western church. Trent dealt with some issues that had no relevance to the rest of the church. You have to remember Trent's goal was to deal with Protestantism. The east wasn't worried about Protestants but was occupied with trying to deal with Islam. That battle continues to this day.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    Chris, would you accept that the doctrinal statements of Vatican II are solid. There are some doctrinal statements within the 16 documents. Some Trads are hypocritical and only accept conciliar documents that tickle their ears and tell them what they want to hear. Vatican II pronounced no anathemas but there is solid doctrine in those documents.
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  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Charles,

    Please excuse my lack of clarity. I was trying to figure out what you meant by " a mess".

    To answer your question:

    I won't speak for Traditionally-minded Catholics in general, but only for myself, when I say that everything within the Vatican II documents which repeats the content of previously held, believed and taught doctrine and dogma is solid. I'm unaware, beyond that, of any actually binding doctrinal or dogmatic statements in the council's work, which is why I'm routinely puzzled by the "unless they accepts Vatican II" reason for keeping the SSPX at arms' length. They, surely, accept everything dogmatic from the council, and refuse all the pastoral suggestions, or at least some of them.

    Full disclosure: I am not now, nor have I ever been, attached to the SSPX. I have attended Mass on very rare occasions in SSPX chapels.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW tomjaw
  • Joseph Michael
    Posts: 258
    In anticipation of the return of public masses in the Diocese of Lansing beginning on May 18, hymn books have been removed from the pews to prevent the spread of the virus by the handling of common objects. While no guidelines have been issued--at least as of yet-- there will be social distancing restrictions, limited seating, and possibly (?????) a requirement to wear masks. Interestingly, the Episcopal dioceses of Michigan have already banned any singing when their public liturgies return. I am planning using a couple of choir members to chant the propers and the ordinary of the mass. For the people in the pews, if they are allowed to and can sing while wearing a mask, I will use a lot of "Alleluia Psalm Tones" and (traditional) hymns that they know by heart. After the Bishop of Lansing made the announcement about the return to public masses, the Governor, on Friday, extended the stay at home order until the end of May. This might not apply to churches.
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    3024 x 4032 - 4M
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  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    We may only pray that this directive remains in place in OCP parishes for some time.
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  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,085
    You're forgetting about the prevalence of big screen projectors, which are displacing hymnals in a growing number of churches.
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  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    I don't know why hymnals and pew missals weren't of the first things to go, anyway, when parishes and dioceses were first claiming to be taking steps toward better safety and sanitary measures.
    Let's all sing "Faith of our Fathers," "Holy God We Praise Thy Name," and the lovely Marian and traditional (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catholic_hymns ?) hymns we learned as children that don't seem to be sung enough, anymore.
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  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Damian Thompson recently welcomed agnostic Harry Mount to his podcast to talk about Mount's commentary bearing the title "Unlock the churches!"
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    @joseph michael: Milwaukee's instructions do NOT include 'wear mask.' However, given the 25% of capacity/every other pew/separate non-families requirements, getting a seat will be like winning the Lotto.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Can one of you who speak statisticseese show me the flaw in this information, or in my understanding of it?

    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/index.htm

    Our reticence to open up the country is based on huge numbers of deaths and high contagiousness, but if I'm reading these numbers properly, the problem is about half as serious as previously announced.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    Half as serious has been noted by some observers. However, if you are in the wrong half you may be toast. I plan to wear masks in public and take precautions for a few more weeks just in case.

    In my county, we have had 240 or so cases, 180 or so recoveries, and 5 deaths. Will this go up when folks get out of quarantine? The head of the county health dept. is concerned about that.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    If you want to compare the current figures on COVID victims to the projections, can you go back and actually look up those projections, so you can see how they were presented?

    I remember them often presented as worst-case projections based on conditions, and those conditions didn't pan out. For example, quarantine measures were undertaken, so projections based on an assumption of no intervention became not defective, but moot.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Elmar
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Incidentally, here's a number to follow.

    Here's how the effective transmission rate, or "reproduction rate" is doing now. The aim of the quarantine measures is to get these figures to stay below 1.0:
    https://rt.live/
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Just days ago the news headline read "more dead from COVID than Vietnam". Now that number is nearly cut in half?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Chris, scroll down the page to the section "Why these numbers are different".
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Ok. Thanks. I thought I had seen the small print, but I must have missed something.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    Reporting lags make this sort of analysis meaningless except in retrospect.
    I worked for the UK Goverment on the distribution of central grants to local authorities. The law required designated sums to be distributed within the financial year, the data on which they were distributed continued to be revised for at least two years after the close of the year. Every year we had to lay before Parliament orders adjusting the provision for the previous four years!
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen CharlesW
  • Chris_McAvoyChris_McAvoy
    Posts: 389
    Good men and women who love obedience to the Holy yoke of Christ,

    I ask you to look into your hearts, pray deeply and seek all advice from all those men of faith whom you most trust as well as for God to reveal upon your heart what is true and what is false. Please recognize that these rules which are now proposed by certain bishops due to their fears of the effects of a virus must be rejected by all the faithful. What is being asked of you is an unprecedented innovation based upon a manipulation of the truth. Beware the tyranny of medicine, which is in fact a pseudo-medicine in the guise of true medicine, this is now one of the foundations the new radical Godless political ideology of our age. The bishops must not place any restrictions upon anyone to attend Holy Mass which are any different than what was asked of them two months ago. The medicine of salvation, the bread of heaven and body of Christ, offers a spiritual protection and salvation from all fears of this world. It alone is enough.

    If you so choose to attempt to accept these innovative rules and restrictions you will conform yourself with a demonic spiritual oppression which is not of Christ.     If you wish to save the the faith and sooner spare the faith of near future oppression and betrayal, than you will reject what decisions have been made by those clergy who live in fear according to oppression from the Godless. I plead with you all to reject these rules, whole-heartedly and completely. Bishops who may stand in place of Christ may still live in fear. Many threats have been placed upon the Church at this time, but we know that God will confound fear with hope. May our glorious God allow the holy Church to remain Free in this age of persecution and trial.

    May your endurance in this test be blessed by the grace of the true and ever-living God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, to whom be all Glory, through all ages of ages. Amen.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    This continues to look like seasonal flu in all except transimissibility which appears to be higher. The preventive jukes by Bishops (et al) resemble airport-security measures: far more hat than cattle.

    It's rather interesting that Catholic Bishops would like to defy death's inevitability.
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  • Chris_McAvoyChris_McAvoy
    Posts: 389
    For your edification:

    Prayer is grace. God gives it when there exists zeal and humility… Let Christ not be missing from your heart. REF:Elder Amphilochios of Patmos +1970

    Christanity is similar to tasting deeply of truth, eating and drinking of truth - to eat and drink on and on unto power and energy. It is like a certain spring when someone very thirsty begins to drink from it. But then, while he is drinking, someone rushes him off before he has drunk his fill. Afterward, he burns more ardently, because he has tasted the water and eagerly seeks it. So also in the spiritual life, a person tastes and partakes of the heavenly food, but while he is eating it is taken away and no one given him to eat his fill. St. Macarius the Great, Fifty Spiritual Homilies

    Have you realized that the world and worldly cares do not hinder in fulfilling God's commandments, when there is zeal and attention? That silence and retirement from the world are useless, if laziness and negligence prevail?" St. Simeon the New Theologian (On Faith, Writings from the Philokalia on Prayer of the Heart ; Faber and Faber pg. 147):

    He is a foolish traveler who sees pleasant meadows on his journey and forgets where he is going. Therefore let our hearts yearn with all our desire for our heavenly home, let them desire nothing in this world which they must leave quickly. If we are truly sheep of the heavenly Shepherd, and are not arrested by any delight alone the way, we shall be satisfied with eternal pastures on our arrival there. St. Gregory the Great.

    Only the "zealot according to knowledge is a model for the true Christian." St Nectarios of Aegina

    The "principal characteristics" of the zealot according to knowledge are the following: "fervent love for God and neighbor, gentleness, religious tolerance, forbearance, graciousness of manner."

    Christian life is zeal and the strength to remain in communion with God by means of an active fulfillment of His holy will, according to our faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the help of the grace of God, to the glory of His most holy name.     St Nectarios of Aegina
    - p
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    As to the relative efficacy of "lockdowns":

    Many experts make a compelling case that although social distancing is an excellent way for individuals to avoid catching the virus, nationwide shutdowns of the economy and school closures simply prolong the life of the virus in a community and make no difference in the overall number of deaths."

    "One such expert is Professor Yitzhak Ben Israel of Tel Aviv University. He’s one of a number who argue convincingly that regardless of whether a country locks down or remains open, the coronavirus peaks and subsides in exactly the same way. Put simply, Sweden won’t have a higher mortality rate than Britain—despite the fact that Britain shut its economy down at enormous cost. Knut Wittkowski, a former biostatistician at Rockefeller University, makes the same argument..."


    --quote from Epoch Times

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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    I am interested in whether hotter more humid weather will weaken the virus as it tends to do with the flu - and hot and humid is our way of life in southern summers. The coronavirus is more contagious and it also seems to do far worse lung damage.

    This is an interesting take on the virus from an Orthodox perspective. It is about 15 minutes and the first few minutes are introductory. Interesting, nevertheless, since it seems to reflect some of what I am hearing here.


    The Coronavirus Crisis: Letter from the Holy Mountain Greece

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNqXLktKzDY
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    COVID-19 is a coronavirus, not an influenza. So far, evidence of warmth and humidity being an effective obstacle to transmission is wanting.
    Thanked by 3CharlesW MarkB Elmar
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    Much is unknown at this time. Hope for the best but prepare for the worst.
    Thanked by 3a_f_hawkins tomjaw Elmar
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    @CharlesW
    I am interested in whether hotter more humid weather will weaken the virus as it tends to do with the flu

    Another explanation of why the Flu subsides as the weather warms up, is that after a while everyone (o.k. most people) will have got it and recovered or died of it. After a while as with any disease it runs out of victims...
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  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,165
    I'm inclined to follow the Book of Sirach and to follow the advice of physicians.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    follow the advice of physicians

    Yes, I always choose to follow the advice of the physician I agree with...
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  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    "Another explanation of why the Flu subsides as the weather warms up, is that after a while everyone (o.k. most people) will have got it and recovered or died of it. After a while as with any disease it runs out of victims..."

    No. It's because influenza viruses are more robust (and thus more likely to successfully infect us) in colder, drier environments. But COVID-19 is not an influenza virus.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    I note that, on the currently published numbers, about 7% of those diagnosed have died as a world average, but it is 15% in the UK and 4% in Germany.
    The UK, like Sweden, is assuming it will get everywhere.
    Why does Italy need lockdown and Sweden not - that at least is obvious, the rate of spread is critical for how well hospitals can cope, and Swedes are more reserved than Italians, less demonstrative, much less touchy-feely. The English lie between, and needed a less stringent lockdown.
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    I read something - this is from memory and I am not looking at the article - that claimed the wall surrounding the flu virus "toughens" in cold weather and becomes weaker when it is hot. I used to hear the older folks talk about their hope the winter would be cold enough to freeze out the bugs and diseases. It seems that with flu, it is the heat that does it in. With the coronavirus, I don't think anyone knows for sure.

    Yes, I always choose to follow the advice of the physician I agree with...


    This reminds me of my seriously overweight aunt who would get mad when a doctor told her to lose weight. She finally found an overweight doctor and they got along splendidly.
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  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    Swedes are more reserved than Italians, less demonstrative, much less touchy-feely


    Others cite the multi-generational living arrangements in Italy as a very significant factor, along with weight problems not matched in Sweden. Plus, Swedes are blonde.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw mattebery
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Dad,
    Is the blondness supposed to make them more or less susceptible to becoming ill?
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  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    prepare for the worst.


    But that requires access to Sacraments.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen tomjaw
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    But that requires access to Sacraments.


    See my note above with the message from the monk on Mt. Athos. He maintains the same.
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  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Provisional death counts may not match counts from other sources, such as media reports or numbers from county health departments. Our counts often track 1–2 weeks behind other data for a number of reasons:
    says the CDC. That means that numbers can go up, from previous counts, since death certificates list causes of death.

    The CDC's own numbers from a week ago show more than 20,000 fewer people dead from COVID now than then. That's the part that makes no sense to me. If a death certificate is received, that person is listed as dead, and when a cause is known it is listed. How can fewer people be dead than the CDC's own tallied numbers a week after this outfit has already listed deaths?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Chris, can you please post quotations and sources if you are going to ask people to help you understand what you are reading? This sort of talk is off-topic enough already. This is not a public health statistics forum.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Chonak,

    My apologies. Please remove the posts.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    I've seen that to which you are referring, CGZ. Our stats in TN have been quietly edited down to fewer covid deaths, as well.
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  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    As far as stats go, this is extremely interesting:
    Tanzania suspends laboratory head after President questions coronavirus tests
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,827
    hymn books have been removed from the pew
    reminds me of mass book burning of days past

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_burning

    (however, there are some hymns that should never have been published... tearing out and burning certain pages... could that be an option?)
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    The CDC's own numbers from a week ago show more than 20,000 fewer people dead from COVID now than then.


    Here's what happens. The CDC estimates Wu-Flu deaths every day. But the death certificates which state the actual cause of death aren't available for a couple of weeks after the death. The reduced number is the "actual" Wu-Flu death(s) when the certs have been filed. It's an adjustment. Over time, you'll see the CDC estimate get closer to the actual number, as the database grows and better calculations can be made.

    However, CDC has issued a very imprecise method of determining cause-of-death which has been manipulated by some States and hospitals for financial benefit; Wu-flu is a lucrative little sucker.
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