Equal voices (was: An exercise in tact, 2.0)
  • mmeladirectress
    Posts: 1,075
    Our friend NihilNominis has introduced the admirable idea of an ongoing series.

    I will go next, hoping for similar wise and different takes on an issue :-)

    How does one enforce the idea of “equal voices”? So far at least, explanation does not seem to stick.
    Thanked by 2cesarfranck NihilNominis
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,295
    I’m not sure I understand what you mean by “equal voices,” but I would like to! Could you elaborate, Madame?
    Thanked by 1cesarfranck
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,366
    I take 'two equal voices' to mean two single voices of the same register, each with a tonal quality that compliments the other. This would translate into two tenors, two altos, etc. Also, the tessitura of the particular piece one has in mind has a bearing (though in many cases, as in chant, the piece may be pitched wheresoever it is convenient for the particular voices involved).

    My model for this understanding is Lassus's twelve Cantiones Duarum Vocum, which I have sung or heard sung with baritones, tenors, countertenors, altos, and sopranos. Basses would rather muddle the texture of these little motets, which should be light and clean.

    I myself am in the midst of composing (in Old Church English), as sort of a Tombeau de Lassus, the lesser propers for the Solemnity of the Trinity for Duas voces aequales.
    Thanked by 3irishtenor cesarfranck Elmar
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,295
    I hope you'll share your composition when it's complete!
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,148
    Me too!!
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Elmar
    Posts: 500
    Sounds really interesting! (for 2021 I guess? Trinity is on June 7th already, a mere seven weeks of corona time...
    for Due voces equaliter
    Ad duas voces aequales?
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,366
    Thanks for correcting my Latin, Elmar.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,942
    That's two voices with equal liters....
    Thanked by 1Carol
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Pints.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,942
    Pikers. A Maßkrug for Oktoberfest is a liter/litre.
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,371
    For instance -
    685ba9da2619f46fa291e486959f24cf.jpg
    240 x 320 - 14K
    Thanked by 2Liam Elmar
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,704
    But they don't serve the beer (well at least the liquid) by volume... So could well be a pint.
  • Elmar
    Posts: 500
    Oktoberfest 2020 has been canceled today :-(
    ...but they are doing it over next year. Wondering if that means:
    - twice as long (in terms of days)
    - twice as long in terms hours per day
    - twice as much beer per Maß
    - all of the above combined.
    Then we'll be singing (back on topic) ad duo decies centena millia vocum inaequalium
    Thanked by 2tomjaw M. Jackson Osborn
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,704
    Here is one of the oldest beer drinking songs, and we have the music! I won't publish a translation...

    https://archive.org/details/romania21pariuoft/page/262/mode/2up
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • Elmar
    Posts: 500
    Wow tomjaw, what a great find!

    I especially like the idea (if I understand the explanation right) that the rural population used to celebrate winter solstice with a whole, long night of eating and drinking; that this pre-Christian habit was tolerated by the Church; and as a consequence monks went to the villages after Christmas midnight Mass, and after singing that drinking song on the tune of the sequence of the previous liturgy, they were treated by the locals on beer and food.

    Should be an adequate simulacrum of oktoberfest 2020!
    Thanked by 2tomjaw CatherineS
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,704
    @Elmar, It is usually referenced in any discussion of the Laetabundus sequence... I had looked it up for friends that are interested in such things and can read that sort of early French. I was going to set it to music but at least one verse is rather rude...

    It is reasonably common to celebrate the winter solstice, the only problem is the solstice could never fall as late as the 25th. It is now the 21st and those that used the Julian calendar the solstice would fall as early as the Feast of St. Lucy!

    N.B. The feast of the unconquered sun (25th) was invented to replace the feast of Christmas!

    Of course carolling did involve travelling around singing Advent and then Christmas Carols, most of these are unsuitable to sing even now in a church, our choir sings them over mulled wine and mince pies! Your mention of beer makes me tempted to mull some beer next year! The Oxford book of Carols is a useful place to find what RVW et al. considered to be the best Carols.
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Tomjaw,

    I'm sorry that this will derail the thread, but I had always been told that the date of Christmas was established to counteract the feast of the unconquered sun. Can you set me straight on this, with appropriate documentation?
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,942
    The better argument is that the date of the Nativity was derived from the Paschal date as coincident with the date of the Incarnation, which was thematically tied to the March equinox and the days of creation, et cet.
    Thanked by 3tomjaw CHGiffen Elmar
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,704
    @Chris Garton-Zavesky

    Gueranger in his 'Liturgical year' writes, Vol. 2 pg. 3
    And firstly, with regard to our Saviour's Birth on December 25, we have St John Chrysostom (A.D. 386) telling us, in his Homily for this Feast, that the Western Churches had, from the very commencement of Christianity, kept it on this day. He is not satisfied with merely mentioning the tradition; he undertakes to show that it is well founded, inasmuch as the Church of Rome had every means of knowing the true day of our Saviour's Birth, since the acts of the Enrolment, taken in Judea by command of Augustus, were kept in the public archives of Rome.


    Fulton Sheen has a section on this in his book "Life of Christ", see pg.17-20 particularly pg. 18 para 3 onwards.
    https://sacredheartshrine.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Life-of-Christ-Fulton-J.-Sheen.pdf

    Also Taylor Marshall, has done some research, he has some links to the documents about the feast of the Unconquered Sun,
    https://taylormarshall.com/2012/12/yes-christ-was-really-born-on-december.html

    Even Wiki admits with references that the Feast is not earlier than A.D. 274 which is rather late, considering anyone could visit the Imperial archive...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Invictus#cite_note-8

    There are also many Roman records, mentioning Christ... I have been meaning to create a list...
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Tom,

    So, where did the story come from (except those who are intent on making a case that the early Church accepted syncretism) that it happened the other way around?
    Thanked by 2tomjaw Elmar
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,704
    @Chris

    The usual anti-Catholic / Christian nonsense? ... I love the "Easter is a Pagan festival because St. Bede mentioned some pagan commemoration of Eostre (spring)"

    When did this story appear? some of these things are very late (pagan revival by the Victorians?). How many serious historians could believe that Christ did not exist. I am told that we have more secondary evidence for Christ than Julius Caesar!
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,371
    The Grand Erratum https://archive.org/details/napoleonmythcont00evanuoft/page/10/mode/2up devised (by a physicist) as satire on the attempts to prove Christ did not exist.
    Thanked by 4tomjaw M. Jackson Osborn Elmar StimsonInRehab
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