NPM, despite its shortcomings when it comes to perspectives on liturgy and music, has far more credibility and much more influence than CMAA with and on Catholic pastors and parishes. I have not been a member of NPM ever because I have many objections to their perspectives on sacred music. A quick look at their website, however, reveals they have no public forum similar to this forum on CMAA. Maybe they have a private forum for their members. But their public website does not have a forum on which uncredible voices are given a public platform. CMAA would be wise to consider this format if it ever wishes to attain even a fraction of the credibility and influence of NPM.

Twenty years ago, the pastor stopped paying for my membership in NPM. He said we had outgrown anything they had to offer. I had no intention of paying for it myself, so I dropped it. NPM is not relevant to anything I am doing now and my congregation is very traditional. Our folks would not have been supportive what NPM was doing at that time. Today, I have no idea what NPM does since I have no contact with them.

Years ago I discovered the CMAA precisely because my pastor (and boss) wanted to avoid the "big three" and NPM, because my instructions were to put the parish through (in his words) "detox".

One measure of “influence,” as this is a Catholic organization, has to be that the NPM does have an Episcopal Moderator. That is, there is a bishop that serves as the official liaison between the Association and the Bishops’ Conference. This seems important to me. I think it would be wise for there to be some consideration at the leadership level of the CMAA about the possibilities of this, and whether it would be desirable for such a relationship to exist for the CMAA.

BrophyBoy - Yes, good observation and suggestion. Among many other things to do, an able Episcopal moderator, I am sure, would have time to survey this forum, and would provide a good accounting of CMAAs current credibility, and ways to improve going forward.

I should add - I have nothing against the EF, and in a different life where I didn't work for the church I might even attend that predominantly with my family. I'm just saying that the picture with the CMAA is often muddy - is it here to improve liturgical music in the Novus Ordo, or is the Novus Ordo itself a waste of effort?

anyone who posts on it should have to use their full, real name, and have a profile that provides a short bio. This would increase the quality of postings, increase the credibility of those who post, and would do the same for CMAA at the same time.

....write JPNZ71.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I introduce to you Irony.

JPNZ71,

I'll reply through PM, so as to protect your identity. If you really fear retribution from people such as me, as our moderator asserts, there may be other issues.

Nevertheless, I find it amusing that you decide that I didn't address the substance of the post, which (surely) was that the CMAA needs to improve its standing.

If membership/affiliation is one measure of influence, the following data from a survey last year is pertinent:

QUESTION 14 What is your parish’s history with NPM? Please select all that apply.
Answer choices Responses
Our music director is a current member 51.5% 1326
Our music director was formerly a member 14.9% 384
Our music director has never been a member 26.9% 692
Our pastor is a current member 9.4% 241
Our pastor was formerly a member 4.2% 109
Our pastor has never been a member 34.3% 883

https://www.npm.org/httpdocs/assets/NPM_Landscape_Survey-Results.pdf

Note: the survey was not only distributed to NPM members nor through NPM channels.

Here's a link to NPM's April newsletter. Has a financial report for 2019 and outlines plans for remaining a viable organization. One impressive thing about it is that the issue addresses the coronavirus suspension of public worship. That's an agile response:

http://www.modernpubsonline.com/0A43u46/April2020/html/index.html?origin=reader

I would be wary of harassment at work from people such as you

There is no credibility to someone who is not honest about who they are. You can have my career if I cannot speak the truth of the Gospel freely and openly without being... (name offense against personhood here)

Introit (of the day)
Gal 6:14.
But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ; by whom the world is crucified to me, and I to the world.
Ps 66:2

FYI... Pueri Cantores (the RC children's choir organization) also has an Episcopal moderator in the US. Bishop Zubik of Pittsburgh is the bishop attached to it as moderator. Having one gives some credibility (though not much IMO).

I make no secret of who I am either, I am a former organic Chemist, working as a teacher in South London... A quick trawl through posts will show that many of those with un-descriptive names have also revealed who they are...

I see you object to the Swiss, but they have an interesting culture (my wife is Swiss) But as you can see from the links I had posted, they link to all sorts of data, many that are main stream. I suspect that you do not like the message, but that is science, sometimes the message is unwelcome!

I'm not a member of NPM, but our Diocesan Office of Worship director kind of advocates for them so I peruse their offerings from time to time and have attended one of their conventions. They recently had a webinar addressing their NPM 2.0 which is some kind of organizational campaign at updating and improving themselves. The results of their survey previously mentioned were discussed and then they took some questions. I was actually surprised that less than 250 people even tuned in for that. I know their membership is only around 4000, but especially since most people are stuck at home anyways I thought that seemed pretty indicative.

They really project relevance, importance, and influence, but aside from name recognition I just don't get the impression that they really matter to a lot of people. And the numbers don't lie. In the last five years alone they've lost 25% of their membership despite maintaining the same number of chapters. And the convention I went to in 2018 was overwhelmingly people of the older generation. As a then 24 year old, I felt very out of place.

They have some interesting offerings on their website, lots of partnerships with the big 3 (now 2) and as mentioned above an Episcopal Moderator, but that's it. The more I learn about liturgy and the role of music the more I'm confused by many of the things NPM says. I think they mean well, I just don't agree with some of their fundamental notions of what Liturgy is and how music functions in it.

If neither organization suits you, then you will just have to start your own.

You might be right.

Along with CHG, I would add, "influential" is only a part, perhaps even subserviant, to what CMAA is about. In my view (becoming a member back in 2005 and attending my first Colloquium, 47 people total, I believe) it was promoting authentic sacred music within the rite of the RCC. Although its members participate in both the NO and EF (as the two rites are presently dubbed), IMHO it is to the tradition of the Latin Rite that it contributes most of its energy.

My initial take on the NPM.

Music Counterpart to the Theological Revolution

It is almost entirely devoted to the efforts of the New Order of mass, filling the musical vacuum once the attempted displacement of the TLM had been activated. I just downloaded the first issue of the NPM Mag which is available to the public. I suppose you could call it the manifesto of NPM. It is available from their website here. Just parsing thorugh this pub, you get a really good idea what 'credibility' (or lack thereof) the NPM has gained for itself over the years. Never joined, never will.

However, I will admit I was sucked into its philosophy as were so many of us who were young and reaching for the "novel" in the 70s. Hindsight is 20/20.

https://npm.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/PM Vol 01-1.pdf

This could very well be an explanation of the theological counterpart to understanding the NPM.

Theological Revolution

https://padrepioandchiesaviva.com/uploads/Paul_VI.._beatified_english.pdf

@jpnz71 - I have been an administrator on a site devoted music (the now defunct Trombone Forum). I also belong to other fora, although only as a member. I can tell you that, in my experience, unless a forum is very highly moderated (e.g. all posts have to be approved before it becomes available for viewing) they all become

essentially a wild, wild west of personalities and comments

. That's because, when you have a free exchange of ideas topics will drift off-topic. That's not always a bad thing. That's the way natural conversations take place. They tend to drift all over the place.

Most of the fora I belong to usually have a hand-full of members who do the majority of posting. They tend to be the ones who have very strong opinions about the subject being discussed. Again, this is not a bad thing. These people tend to be very knowledgeable about the subject at hand. Unfortunately, there is, as they say, more than one way to skin a cat. The most heated discussions on any forum are about the best way to skin said cat.

I can honestly say that I have learned more about my faith, sacred music, the liturgy, and how they all come together here on this forum than I did from my CCD classes while I was in school. These people on this forum are an amazing resource for anyone who wants to learn more about sacred music.

Also, the purpose of a forum is not to lift an organization into greater relevance or influence. A forum is a place for the members of the organization to feel free discuss ideas, techniques, problems, and solutions. To discuss those things that are important to musicians. That includes a very wide range of subjects.

And about this forum being a drag on the mission of the CMAA, I can only speak from personal experience. I came to the CMAA website to learn how to sing Chant. I didn't think that the type of music at Mass made a whole lot of difference, as long as it didn't espouse heretical ideas. But, as I've read and participated in this forum, I have learned that there is a music that is meant to be sung at Mass. Just like there are readings and prayers that are meant to be read and prayed at Mass. If it weren't for this forum, I would have never l learned that. Seems to me that the forum is helping to further the ideas the CMAA is championing.

Of course, YMMV

IMSLP is administered by one of our members.

I didn't know this. But I do know that CPDL is administered by one of the CMAA forum contributors; in fact, this person has served as its president for almost 10 years, and prior to the incorporation of CPDL as a nonprofit he managed CPDL through a two year period of transition.

When Virtus and other training programs were mandated for choirs a lot of anonymous accounts were opened that haven't been used since. I therefore don't think we can assume jpnz71 necessarily hasn't made on-topic musical contributions under another handle. And I have to agree that this forum has become especially embarrassing lately; things didn't go quite this far off the rails even after Charlottesburgville. Until jpnz71 urged a closer inspection of a 'Swiss' 'alternative facts' site I wasn't even aware Rwandan genocide denial was 'a thing'.

I do not contribute anonymously myself and resist the temptation to rewrite or blank my posts. I do however commend the period and yellow square to the person suggesting that the only a liberal agenda to shame conservatives could be behind an objection to the Confederate flag.

If it were true that NPM was a fading entity that would be news worthy of celebrating. However, I see little or no sign of it in the unworthy music that seems standard in most parishes and some cathedrals, As a good sign, they even had a booth for Fr Columba (RIP) and for chant at their recent conventions. What is the evidence for them becoming less influential?

things didn't go quite this far off the rails even after Charlottesburg.

???
I lived for 38 years in Charlottesville (on faculty of UVa) before moving back to the Midwest in 2004.

If it were true that NPM was a fading entity that would be news worthy of celebrating. However, I see little or no sign of it in the unworthy music that seems standard in most parishes and some cathedrals, As a good sign, they even had a booth for Fr Columba (RIP) and for chant at their recent conventions. What is the evidence for them becoming less influential?

OCP and GIA drive the NPM and Catholic music cart, not the other way around. NPM could instantaneously disintegrate and the influence of OCP and GIA on Catholic liturgical music would remain dominant. NPM does not drive the agenda; it is a water boy for OCP and GIA, and a useful instrument for them to propagandize parish musicians and promote their music. Because, you see, if a national association of Catholic pastoral musicians is heavily into OCP and GIA music, that gives OCP and GIA added credibility.

As I said, NPM is dying. Even after it dissolves the music landscape won't change much because OCP and GIA are firmly entrenched and will still be doing what they're doing, even without NPM.

But (((we))) don't have to supply oxygen to fan the gaseous emanations from cranks.

Unfortunately, NPM is largely run by GIA, OCP. That's where the $ is. Their conventions are mostly publicity campaigns for products by those companies. if you attend a liturgy at the convention, it is a "GIA" liturgy, where every piece of music is a GIA publication, for sale after Mass in the lobby...Oh, and the digital organ companies.

CharlesW, I use IMSLP a lot, too ... their old facsimile editions are often used by several of us contributors to CPDL to engrave scores for CPDL.

Concerning 'influence -
You all may pummel me with popcorn and accuse me of myopia - but, is there any influence at all in the wider liturgical scene of the Ordinariate's liturgical praxis? This question arises from genuine curiosity - not, I assure you, from any liturgical chauvinism.