Bishop Schneider Speaks Out
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,546
    You just can't make this stuff up:

    https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/4826-exclusive-interview-bishop-athanasius-schneider-on-church-s-handling-of-coronavirus

    The 'church' is wandering in the pasture without a shepherd and the wolves are licking their chops.

    “As long as supermarkets are open and accessible, and as long as people have access to public transportation, one cannot see a plausible reason for banning people from assisting at Holy Mass in a church,” Bishop Schneider said. “One can guarantee in churches the same and even better hygienic protective measures.”

    He said the Church’s handling of the coronavirus epidemic has revealed a “loss of supernatural vision” particularly among the hierarchy — some of whom, he noted, despite their vigilance to combat COVID-19, have “tranquilly allowed the poison virus of heretical teachings and practices to spread among their flock.”
    I have nothing to add. The Bishop says it well. Read it.

    More quotes:
    Asked if he believes the coronavirus pandemic is a form of divine retribution for the Pachamama events held inside the Vatican during the October 2019 Amazon Synod, the bishop said that while he does not have “certainty” that these events are related, the idea is “not far-fetched.”

    “The cultic veneration of the pagan idol of Pachamama inside the Vatican, with the approval of the Pope, was to be sure a great sin of infidelity to the First Commandment of the Decalogue, it was an abomination,” he said. But he added that “such acts of idolatry were the culmination of a series of other acts of infidelity to the safeguarding of the divine deposit of Faith by many high-ranking members of the Church’s hierarchy in past decades.”

    and
    “The Church,” he said, “cannot continue unpunished to treat the Holy of Holies in the little sacred Host in such a minimalistic and unsafe manner.”
  • MarkB
    Posts: 671
    Bishop Schneider doesn't get it: shopping for groceries is a necessary risk because people absolutely have to eat. Of course there's a risk of transmission in grocery stores. That's why wise and prudent people prepared weeks ago by stockpiling food to last for at least a couple of months, eliminating their need to go grocery shopping. If there were a reliable and efficient means of delivering groceries to everyone's doorstep, I bet grocery stores would be closed too. The point of closing as many public venues as possible, including churches and Mass, is to reduce the opportunities for transmission of the virus.

    Stay at home. Anything you touch that's been touched by someone else, any air you breathe that has been exhaled by someone else has the potential to infect you and those you live with or meet. The fewer public places you go to and the fewer people you interact with, the lower your risk of infection and the lower your risk of transmitting the virus to others who may be more susceptible to the virus's effects than you.

    As for the claim that it's "not far-fetched" that the Wuhan virus is divine punishment for Pachamama, I can engage in irresponsible, wild speculation too: maybe the virus is divine retribution for Peter Kwasniewski's incessant and increasingly vociferous attacks on the Novus Ordo Mass.
  • Kevin814
    Posts: 41
    I don't get it.... God's retribution for what happened in the Vatican is to send a virus to attack not only Catholics in Italy, but also Taoists in China? And Evangelicals in the United States? And Muslims in Iran?
  • Drake
    Posts: 159
    MarkB, your post, indeed, fits with the current natural wisdom and describes well the natural course of action which has been plotted to contain and mitigate our present affliction. Yet, it is a course that precludes any public spiritual solution in practice, if not in theory; and it is in this that I believe Bishop Schneider is most alarmed.

    I would like to make my point, by contrasting the statement of my own bishop with that of Bishop Schneider. My bishop, in his decree that ended public Masses in my diocese stated, "Let me also be clear, this is not an act of God, this is an act of nature." I was rather shocked by this statement, but it does explain how he arrived at his decree.

    My bishop is simply mistaken. Nothing happens which is done without, at the very least, the permissive will of God. Heliotropium, to illustrate this point, describes the case of an arsonist who burns down your house. The arsonist brings to the equation only the evil will to burn down the dwelling. God supplies fire, the arsonist's mobility, and all the rest; and He easily could prevent the destruction of the home simply by removing any single one of those elements. It is not as if He could not do so. To the contrary, this contagion is an act of God, if only a permissive act.

    Bishop Schneider is reiterating the fundamental truth that these catastrophes are punishments due to sin. And this is really not shocking. After all, if the entire pitiful human condition is the result of original sin, why wouldn't a particular plague be the result of a particular sin or sins?

    As to wild speculation, the example you gave is nothing like what Bishop Schneider considers. The Pachamama incident occurred at the heart of Christendom, under the aegis of the highest authorities in the Church, one of which speaks to and for the entire Church. Thus, it is not wild speculation to suggest that a world-wide pandemic is related to such an outrage against God, whereas, it is highly laughable that it would be due to what you highlighted in purple (yes, I know it is tongue-in-cheek).

    What Bishop Schneider laments (and I join him in this lament) is that many bishops have concluded the solution to the problem is purely, or at least primarily, a natural one. Thus, they are relying on and imposing natural solutions, even to the extent of reducing access to the spiritual solutions. If this is a punishment due to sin, we must attack it at the root, which is sin. But how can we, if we put away our spiritual weapons?

    No, I believe Bishop Schneider "gets it."
  • MarkB
    Posts: 671
    Prior to this pandemic, when people were infected with the flu, they were routinely advised by bishops and priests that they were dispensed from the obligation to attend Mass until they were no longer infectious; in fact, they had an obligation in charity not to attend Mass because by attending Mass they would risk infecting others in the pews. No bishop said anything like, "Your presence at Mass and your reception of the Eucharist is the most important consideration, and you must attend Mass regardless of how your presence might have a detrimental effect on the lives of others, and don't let anyone interfere with your right to receive Communion."

    During this pandemic, when it is apparent that someone infected with this novel virus can be a carrier and transmitter while being asymptomatic, and with severe and even deadly consequences for people who contract the virus, the logic and duty of charity in the particular example above applies on a society-wide scale. If I might be carrying a virus that could severely harm or kill someone who is in proximity to me or who later sits where I sat, don't I have a duty in charity not to expose anyone else to my presence? If we all might be carriers, don't we all have a duty in charity not to risk exposing anyone else? Don't we have a duty in charity to self-isolate in a society-wide effort to suppress the spread of the virus for the sake of everyone else? Wouldn't disregard of stay-at-home orders based on the professional recommendations of epidemiologists be selfish and irresponsible? There are numerous examples in our country and around the globe of how a social gathering with just one infected person resulted in an outbreak that couldn't be contained, and spread enormous suffering in the community and pushed health care providers to the brink.

    The vehemence and indignation with which some Catholics are insisting on their rights to the sacraments seems to me to border on spiritual selfishness and pride. Selfishness because their personal access to Communion is more important than charity towards their neighbors in consideration for the health and well-being of general society. Pride because they think their faith that God will protect them, or their willingness to accept infection and death if God wills it, evinces greater holiness than that of cowardly bishops and others who have suspended public worship and parish events as a prudent precaution in coordination with all major social institutions to help suppress the spread of the virus.

    The Church listens to physicians about natural means to prevent and treat disease. Why shouldn't the Church also listen to epidemiologists during this pandemic about natural means to combat its spread? This is an opportunity for Catholics to show love for their neighbor by tolerating a temporary deprivation of sacraments. Imagine the wrath from society if Catholics refused to abide by stay-at-home orders, held Mass, and were responsible for worsening the pandemic?

    Sacraments are not magical antidotes to imprudence. Grace builds on nature; it does not supplant nature.
  • Sacraments are not magical antidotes to imprudence.


    No one, least of all Bishop Schneider, is claiming that the sacraments are magical antidotes to anything.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,159
    From an article of an interview with Fr. José Antonio Fortea Cucurull:
    "In the Book of Samuel, God offered three options for King David to select for having incited the divine wrath: hunger, war and pestilence, which are prefigurements of the Apocalypse.

    These historical chastisements, Fr. Fortea said, were permitted by God and have a connection to sin. "The greater part of evil," he said, "is human, not natural," adding, "Sin has its repercussions in nature, not because sin provokes an earthquake or tidal wave, but because God allowed something to happen that He would not have permitted otherwise."

    What God is saying, the exorcist noted, is that bad things happen because He permits them.

    "To say otherwise would be to suppose that things happen naturally and that God has nothing to do with them," Fr. Fortea continued, "and it would be as if God has nothing to do or that God is limiting himself to merely keeping some things from happening."

    "For he who does not believe in a loving God who protects us, the evil that happens to him has no meaning. But for us, it does have meaning: It is a punishment or a trial. Sometimes, the just man is put to the test."

    (More available online, and I highly suggest reading it.)
  • Drake
    Posts: 159
    I did not intend to create a rabbit hole...maybe I can try to calm things down. First, I appreciate the argument from charity. It is a valid point, and it is always good to be concerned with the welfare of our neighbor. At the same time, we frequently endanger one another unintentionally, e.g., any time we get into a car to go to Mass. That danger does not require of us that we stay at home. Indeed under normal circumstances, we are obligated to attend Mass even with the number of accident fatalities.

    I have no argument that we should stay home from Mass when we know we are sick. We are not bound to go in that situation anyway. In our present situation, the competent authorities have decided that the risk from this virus is sufficient that we are both dispensed from our obligation and bound to avoid gatherings, etc. This is the reality we are living under.

    Where I begin to diverge is when the bishops do not defend the sacraments as essential activities, at least providing some provision for them in groups smaller than we encounter with other essential activities. For example, in my diocese/city, I could buy lumber at Lowe’s or get take-out at a restaurant, but I could not have my child baptized here. I see a priority problem.

    My second divergence is more general. I do see this virus as a symptom of a spiritual problem, not merely a physical one.

    God bless.
  • MarkB
    Posts: 671
    In the case of getting a child baptized, if I were the child's father and no priest would baptize him, at the first manifestation of any danger or illness I would baptize my child myself.

    You're right about skewed priorities in that case.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,159
    There is this:
    https://www.restorepublicmass.com/

    (I completely disagree with the tongs idea, and emailed them, saying so.)
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,691
    Christ is the Lord of history and the King of the universe; yet for us, given His words as presented in Luke 13:1-5, it seems hard to make a connection between a particular calamity and particular human sins and failings.

    1 Now there were some present at that very season which told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.

    2 And he answered and said unto them, Think ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they have suffered these things?

    3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all in like manner perish.

    4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and killed them, think ye that they were offenders above all the men that dwell in Jerusalem?

    5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.


    When people treat disasters as reproaches for other people's sins, He seems to turn that notion away, and He urges us to repent of our own sins.
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,146
    This is not a punishment from God any more than the flu is... I would suggest it is a test...

    We have been sent a bad (possibly) flu, that according to one study does not show symptoms in over 50% of people. It also leaves the young almost untouched, and seems particularly bad for over 65 years olds with other potentially fatal diseases (i.e. people that would die within the year).

    So what do we do...
    1. We forget the thousands of people that die each week of similar respiratory diseases every week of every year. We forget that thousands of over 65's die each week, and somehow think we should all be immortal.
    2. We forget that death is inevitable, we become fearful of death and cling to our personal possessions.
    3. We forget the only gateway to heaven is through death.
    4. We tell the world that the sacraments are not essential, while going out to the liquor store / pet shop etc.
    5. We claim to worry about our neighbour, but only when it is convenient.
    6. We have no Faith so we panic.
    7. The level of panic is so great that we introduce measures that are destructive of our wasteful way of life (that we love beyond measure).
    8. We are still killing our children, because that really is essential.
    9. We then remember God, and then half heartedly pray, but not undertake any meaningful penance. What do we pray for, oh that God take away the 'bad' Flu, when most of our problems are all self imposed and nothing to do with the Flu.

    Once again Man shows that he can punish himself and his fellow man, and then blame God!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,223
    maybe the virus is divine retribution for Peter Kwasniewski's incessant and increasingly vociferous attacks on the Novus Ordo Mass.


    Hilarious. I have often though Peter K. needs a good smack. He's quite full of himself.

    The vehemence and indignation with which some Catholics are insisting on their rights to the sacraments seems to me to border on spiritual selfishness and pride.


    Extremes and extremists are our greatest enemy. I hear too many rant and rave but realize they have no special pipeline to God. He doesn't check in with them every morning and reveal His divine plans for the day. In reality, they don't know any more than the rest of us.

    (I don't encourage the mocking of Our Lady of Fatima).


    The problem with Fatima and most other private revelations is that they may have been good and accurate in the early stages. What steered those revelations off course is that people got into them and misdirected them according to their own speculations and wishes.

    There are numerous examples in our country and around the globe of how a social gathering with just one infected person resulted in an outbreak that couldn't be contained, and spread enormous suffering in the community and pushed health care providers to the brink.


    A good example of our emphasis on individual liberty, a good thing, carried to excess, a bad thing.

    As for the claim that it's "not far-fetched" that the Wuhan virus is divine punishment for Pachamama, I can engage in irresponsible, wild speculation too


    I think it is divine punishment for singing "Gather Us In" at mass.
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,691
    And I thought singing "Gather Us In" at Mass was an act that contains its own punishment!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,223
    Gather us in the old and the creaky
    Gather us in on the floor of the sea.
    Slosh us around in Davy Jones locker
    Plenty good fishes for you and for me.

    Gather us in the senile and kinky
    Gather us in the hippies of yore.
    Gather us in the old and the flaky
    We were the young in 1964.
  • MarkB
    Posts: 671
    Here in this place no one is praying
    Stay at home orders keep them away
    Bishops have canceled Mass now through Easter
    'Cause social distance is our norm today

    Gather us in through TV and Facebook
    Gather us in on Facetime and Zoom
    Gather us in but only through streaming
    Lest COVID-19 be spread to our doom

    We are the young who'll prob'ly survive this
    We are the old who need to beware
    In this new time of parish precautions
    All are welcome but no one is there

    Gather us in through TV and Facebook
    Gather us in on Facetime and Zoom
    Gather us in but only through streaming
    Lest COVID-19 be spread to our doom
  • TCJ
    Posts: 775
    The argument that people who are feeling healthy must stay away from Mass because they may be contagious doesn't hold water. If we were to do that, then we would have to use the same argument for the flu, because that has an incubation time as well. In other words, every year public Mass will have to be cancelled to prevent seemingly healthy but flu-stricken people from infecting other people.

    At what point can you go out if you can never be sure you're healthy?
  • jpnz71
    Posts: 65
    TCJ - no. The covid-19 virus is at least 10 times more deadly than flu, and potentially higher, and has an exponentially higher infection spread rate. With the flu, one person can begin an infection cycle which could result in 14 other people catching the flu. Not to mention we have a flu vaccine and effective treatments for the flu. With covid-19, one person can begin an infection cycle that could lead to 59,000 other people infected with covid -19. And we do not have a vaccine or treatments yet for this. Comparing flu and covid-19 is not a good comparison. Read this - https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-vs-flu-social-distancing-infections-spread-explainer-video-2020-3
    Thanked by 1Schönbergian
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,223
    I have no problems or issues with staying home for a few weeks. Thinking this virus can only affect older people is a myth. Younger people die from it, too. No age group has zero risk and most of the hospitalizations are those aged 20 to 50. Figures vary by region.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,546
    All are welcome but no one is there
    poignant, apocalyptic and ominous...

    During the pope's Urbi et Orbi, I also had the sense of the same... a pope alone, walking toward his palace, not toward the world, alone, not gathering the people of God together, not standing against the pestilence, but simply giving a speech that had no call for the church militant to stand up and defend the world from the impending darkness...
    Thanked by 1CCooze
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,146
    @jpnz71

    Your experts are out of date, here is the latest scroll down for the updates,
    swprs.org/a-swiss-doctor-on-covid-19/?fbclid=IwAR30wrasXEEOfWEPgnr3iw8bpz-uxtS3RFyF3EbjkuT4Rh5hnb3rz8TL-PE

    Also we have no evidence of your claim, see the latest research from Italy!
    is at least 10 times more deadly than flu


    The 10 times more deadly than Flu has come from a soon to be discredited expert at Imperial University, he is always wrong. His latest is that his claim of 500,000 deaths in the U.K. will now be 5,700!

    Also in more good news today we have reached 30,000 people that have died with Chinese Flu (NOT OF Chinese Flu). To put that number into perspective that is 4.6% of the number of people that die of Flu globally in a bad year.

    [The arguments on the "Swiss Doctor" site are sophistry. When people who were limping along with their health problems get finished off by the coronavirus, it is specious to argue that the virus wasn't the immediate cause of their deaths and that their existing conditions were the main issue. The point of the efforts against the CV is that we don't want to just let the virus finish off weak people. Downplaying these deaths as insignificant doesn't make sense.--admin]
    Thanked by 1francis
  • MarkB
    Posts: 671
    TEN ARE WELCOME
    Let us build a house where ten can dwell
    If far apart they stand
    Use a dollop of the sanitizing gel
    To disinfect your hands
    Come the sick, the tired and weary
    But maintain six feet of space
    The coronavirus makes us leery:
    Ten are welcome, ten are welcome
    Ten are welcome in this place
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,223
    We gave had the deaths of some younger people, all perfectly healthy before contracting the virus. Granted, the numbers are low for which I am grateful. But my state is in the lower range of number of cases.
  • CatherineS
    Posts: 630
    There surely is something to be said for a new danger creating a sharper reaction. If this were to continue for some years, we would settle into a routine of carefulness, much like people in countries with a high danger of bacteria contamination of food have routines of cooking and washing to prevent illness that are simply part of normal daily life.

    So I think the panicky reaction is normal, considering the amount of guesswork and contradiction going on amongst the experts and leadership. I'd think a good deal of compassion appropriate for the many people who are torn between trying to follow the restrictions while meeting their daily spiritual, financial and social needs. Even, to an extent, for the bishops, who are in the same boat as the rest of us: not necessarily very qualified for this life and all its challenges, floundering along winging it, trying to balance fear of doing the wrong thing with hope of doing the right thing, hearing outrage from someone no matter what choice they make. At least in my own life I've often felt the stress of trying to cope with conflicting needs at a job or in a family dispute, and I know I've made the wrong decision some times, sometimes with grave or at least hurtful consequences.

    Even in this strange abandonment (a friend pointed out how the Mystical Body will pass through the Passion, too, and perhaps now Christ is in the Tomb, spiritually speaking, and thus we are in a startlingly concrete way abandoned...) I am both grateful to be released from the obligation to assist at painfully bad liturgies that left me miserable; while also feeling distraught not to be able to go. Today assisting online was only more heartbreaking, and I found solace in the rosary.

    So I am grateful that some seminaries remain open, that many priests I know are celebrating and praying with great fervor, that some bishops are speaking more bluntly.

    I hope that we all find more faith, hope and charity in this hardship! I'm very cheered to see so many people doing funny or inspiring art and music projects! I am a big fan of the silly songs.
    Thanked by 1Carol
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,546
    Even in this strange abandonment (a friend pointed out how the Mystical Body will pass through the Passion, too, and perhaps now Christ is in the Tomb, spiritually speaking, and thus we are in a startlingly concrete way abandoned...)
    This is a very real spiritual reality that has been a long time arriving and is finally here. "In the end all you will have is the rosary..." I think that was a prophetic message from years ago. No one knows how dire our situation is truly, and if we are even approaching that Mystical Passion as of yet, but let us chant out together, nonetheless! Silly songs (if you must) in between the serious calls to heaven for help!

    I am both grateful to be released from the obligation to assist at painfully bad liturgies that left me miserable; while also feeling distraught not to be able to go. Today assisting online was only more heartbreaking, and I found solace in the rosary.
    assist at LiveMass.net! There is a beautiful Mass happening and just started NOW (Guadalajara, Mexico). Two deacons, priest and four servers and schola singing the GC of old.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw CatherineS
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,546
    BTW... deal with both your spiritual and physical health...

    Spiritual - GO TO CONFESSION... avoid ALL near occasions of sin. REMAIN in a state of grace.

    Physical - drink a little scotch every day (swish it around in your mouth and kill out any of those pesty (pestilence) organisms, and then send them into the abyss of your intestinal tract (your own little hell for demons). [thrust into hell, satan and all the evil spirits]

    CONSEQUENCES

    Spiritual - eternal
    Physical - temporal
    Thanked by 1CatherineS
  • jpnz71
    Posts: 65
    710,290 confirmed covid-19 cases. 33,550 confirmed deaths. 4.7 percent fatality rate.
    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

    "Your experts are out of date..." - no they are not. Please see above latest data.
    "The REAL danger is the global economy... not the virus, which is a ruse to destroy the economy." - Please stop peddling conspiracy theories.
  • MarkB
    Posts: 671
    How's this for a creative solution: Mass is celebrated at parishes outside, in the center of the largest parking lot. People drive to the parish but do not leave their cars. They attend Mass inside their cars. No one except the priest and an assisting deacon is permitted to be outside of a car. A speaker system enables everyone to hear the Mass. Communion is not distributed. No one is obligated to attend such a Mass because all Catholics are dispensed, but it's offered for anyone who wants to attend Mass.

    In my judgment, that's about the best prudent compromise that should satisfy any reasonable person.
    Thanked by 2MarkS CCooze
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,073
    ...the Diamond Princess cruise ship, which was the ultimate petri dish of recycled air circulating an infection, with an elderly population, experienced a 1.25% fatality rate. New York, which seems to be, by far, the worst hot spot now, has a mortality rate hovering between 0.75% and 0.80%, and it is going down as they test more cases. That compares to 1.2% nationwide,...


    "World-wide" is not similar to the USA, jpnz71.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,546
    Would people be under more divine protection from contracting the virus at a TLM than at a Novus Ordo Mass?
    ask God and report back... I think the polish nation is exempt as they are STILL at least offering the sacraments. However, that would be an interesting study for future reports. Scripturally, I don't think it makes a big dif as it rains on the good and the bad alike.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,073
    No one except the priest and an assisting deacon is permitted to be outside of a car.


    This is March. I daresay that if you make your proposal here in Wisconsin, several priests will hunt you down and tape your mouth shut with duct-tape. As I type, it's 40 degrees, showers, and wind at 20-40 MPH from the west
  • TCJ
    Posts: 775
    Hmm. I was just at an outside Mass in which people stayed in their cars. Cold, windy, wet, Wisconsin.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,073
    TCJ: I think I had heard about that. Mukwonago area, right? Whatever--the priest had to have at least THREE layers of wooly clothing beneath the alb/chasuble.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,691
    Here's a pic from an outdoor Mass in Wisconsin offered today; I'm told that the local police were informed and had no objection.
    image
    607 x 480 - 41K
    Thanked by 1CCooze
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 2,699
    Current 2020:03:29
    Diamond Princess cases=712 deaths=10 recovered=597 in hospital=105 serious/critical=15
    On the other hand a fellow choir member went on a month long cruise around northern Europe over Christmas, ∼1500 passengers, 8 deaths none related to the novel virus.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,073
    Chonak: https://www.conservativereview.com/news/horowitz-coronavirus-begin-us-matters/?fbclid=IwAR2FDVZ-G1ChR40J1CAN16_JR61O5QV1ueXmVOREu0_WYubWpZnIhUdXye0

    As to 'in their cabins,' that excludes dinner, as your WaPo item specifies. They were not practicing "safe eating."

    Your argument seems to be that someone who is not showing symptoms is a danger to others. Indeed, they are!! And they are just as much a danger while having Flu-A or -B while asymptomatic. You are certainly not arguing that during flu season everyone should stay away from Mass, are you?

    Although more reliable figures are (slowly) emerging, we still don't have anything resembling a reality-based denominator with which we can calculate mortality, nor prevalence. As you know, the current thinking (Dr. Birx) is that the denominator is MUCH higher than suspected only a month ago, and it's also likely that the infections in the US began 2-3 weeks earlier than suspected. (In fact, there is anecdotal but firm evidence that that IS the case.)

    Finally, we can NOT import numbers from Italy, Spain, or Red China as some sort of foundation for US calculations, as there are lots of variables which do not apply here.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 2,699
    Once we are into our eighties (as I am), we are dying at the rate of about 10% per annum. If we are inconsiderate enough to do that all in the first 4 months of the year the system will have difficulty coping. The problem Diamond Princess is causing health authorities is the 105 still in hospital, and the 15 in critical care, that means there is no capacity for routine procedures. It's bad for political leaders when the media are showing chaotic scenes in hospitals.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,146
    Diamond Princess medical paper,
    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.05.20031773v2.full.pdf

    EDIT, The latest numbers from John Hopkins says 10 deaths, and 597 recovered.
  • TCJ
    Posts: 775
    @dad29,

    Yes, it was Mukwonago. There was a county police officer in attendance among the crowd of cars. No dust-up occurred.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,687
    Latest data (about an hour ago): 2,424 deaths out of 139,459 confirmed COVID-19 cases in the U.S. - this is a fatality rate of a little over 1.7%. Given the nearly exponential growth rate of (confirmed) infection and the latency effect (death, if it happens, does not occur until a few days after confirmation of infection), this fatality rate is probably low.

    By comparison, the fatality rate from the flu is typically about 0.1%, so the estimates that the fatality rate for COVID-19 is about 10-20 times that of the flu in the U.S. seem reasonable. Once the "infection curve" has flattened out, more accurate assessments can and will be made.
    Thanked by 2MarkB CharlesW
  • CharlesSA
    Posts: 143
    Actually, to know the true death rate, we would have to know how many actual cases there are. As we know by know, there are many unknown cases - because a number of people show little or no symptoms, and therefore don't know that they have it, and therefore - as I assume is the case in most of these instances - are not tested and are not included in the numbers. I also assume (perhaps I could be wrong) that there are also those who do get more than very minor symptoms, but not needing hospitalization, that do not get tested and therefore not included in the numbers.

    So yes, we need to take into account the "latency effect" which you speak of, which would indeed raise the death rate - but the unknown, unidentified cases would lower the death rate back down. Certainly we can't know exactly how much it would be lowered, but it is certain that it would be significantly lowered.

    To be fair, there are probably a good number of these types of cases with the flu as well, but still, it is a good point to take into consideration.

    Then, there is evidence that certain cases of death are being attributed to COVID-19, when in fact it is not certain that COVID-19 is the actual cause of death. This applies both to those who had the virus in them at the time of death but had at least one (if not more) co morbidities which are actually the cause of death, as well as to those whose death is being used in the new coronavirus death count despite the fact that some reports of death are as death from a coronavirus in general and not necessarily from the new one.

    My whole point is, we can't give too much weight to the numbers being given. Not saying the new coronavirus is not a major problem - just saying we have to realize the numbers we are being given are only correct insofar as the numbers we are being given are correct, and there are many concerns indeed (I listed just two) about these numbers.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,159
    jpnz71
    Honestly, a little charity in one's tone goes a long way.
    Clarifying the difference between being a Catholic church-musician and being simply a musician in a Catholic church also makes a difference.

    When people say, "there is no room for me in the Catholic Church," I see a big red flag.
    I know plenty of non-Catholics who enjoy singing sacred music who are capable of talking about music and politics without talking "smack" about Catholics in general, and about those in their conversation, specifically.
    This is the first I've seen you mention sacred music, in this relatively short time period, and it has failed to convince me that you joined the conversation here for any reason other than to stir a pot.

    "Racist."
    Calling a virus a name that the people in even that general area call it is racist?
    I suppose that's like (paraphrasing) The Music Man - we call it that sometimes, but we don't like it when others do it.

    "Implicit Racism."
    My symphony chorus director shared a post from his former music student who teaches in China. Non-Chinese aren't allowed in restaurants and public facilities - even if they've been there throughout the entire time this has been going on.
    Reportedly (by the same student, picture included, but I admit I can't read the banner in question), there's a banner congratulating themselves on the spread of the virus to Americans, and hoping for a prolonged stay of the virus in Japan?

    Making negative blanket statements about a population is a form of bigotry.
    Congratulations on your personal use of such against all who use this forum.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,687
    I stated results of fatalities out from confirmed COVID-19 infections. The results cited for fatalities from influenza are similarly based on known infections. Except to point out the latency effect whereby there are people with confirmed infection today that will die from the disease in the next few to several days, and that an approximately exponential growth rate of infection (at present) means the true proportion of fatalities out of confirmed infections is surely higher - for now.

    Yes, there are (and will continue to be) cases of people who contract the disease but who have such mild symptoms (or are unable to obtain testing) that they are not tested & reported. That's the same with influenza. In the case of fatalities among the elderly - or among people who have other medical conditions (many if not most people have other medical conditions) - it is perhaps disingenuous to suggest that COVID-19 might not be the real cause of death in a large number of such cases. Again, it is the same for influenza. This is precisely why I only cited data of deaths from confirmed cases. I won't engage in what seems to be a popular "hunch" mentality to blunt the actual impetus of the statistics.

    After all, there is the famous saying, "There are lies, there are damned lies, and then there is statistics." Don't fall into the trap of misreading or misinterpreting what the data says.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW Elmar
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,146
    @CHGiffen

    The statistics people did point out that the rate of increase in infections is almost identical to the increase in testing. Even the doom and gloom and always wrong Imperial college (University) group pointed out that the truth rate of infection would be 10x the posted number.

    Also the way different countries are collecting data is not consistent, so most can't be compared.

    I am enjoying looking at the data, and seeing strange patterns...
    Thanked by 1dad29
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,687
    I did NOT say anything about the rate of increase of infections - I only discussed the rate of mortality among the confirmed infections. I leave it to others to speculate, often wildly.
    Thanked by 1Carol
  • jpnz71
    Posts: 65
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/choir-decided-ahead-rehearsal-now-023414705.html

    For those who are still not taking this seriously.
    Thanked by 2Don9of11 a_f_hawkins
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,546
    Here... wear this. This new fashion is probably the best way to go. I hope she doesn't go to the hospital for breathing too much CD.
    634 x 421 - 58K
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,146
    Thanked by 1CCooze
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,159
    That's interesting.
    They could also make a study of how many people who have died who "have" coronavirus also have any sort of dental implants. Since the number of people with any sort of dental implants is decently high, they could probably say that having dental implants increases your chances of dying of coronavirus.
    This is just me being facetious, but the point is that if someone has a cold when they die, you don't normally say that they died of the cold, if something else was the main factor, do you?

    Interesting re: the "deadly choir rehearsal" is that they mentioned diarrhea.
    They've said for a while that such was not a symptom of covid-19 ("you don't need extra TP!"), but now that some people who have it also have had diarrhea at some point in the recent past, it "may" be a symptom. Maybe some of them shared a stomach bug ("they carpooled..," did they also eat together, prior to rehearsal?), and then happened to get it. The article also states that a good number weren't tested while they were/are sick, but they're being counted as having it, anyway.

    The whole thing is just... weird.
    And boy, there really couldn't have been a more opportune time to exploit something, anything, what with the DNC circus that's been playing out in these US.

    I'm not saying the virus doesn't exist.
    I'm not saying that catching a cold or other virus isn't deadly for people who already have dispositions that being pushed over the edge could kill them.
    The point is that it seems like many places are not taking the time to distinguish between someone dying with covid-19 and dying of it.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • This thread is a bad look for the forum.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,358
    Well, there are folks who imagine a brutta figura is prophetic in the manner of St John the Baptist, but a brutta figura does not a prophet make.