[purple] CGZ... you are free to post your inadvertently duplicated thoughts on threads that I start as often as you would like.

bhcordova... I wish I could believe that.

To borrow an idea from Chesterton, Decapitation isn't an improvement in dental hygiene.

the OF is a reform of the EF in the vernacular.

Exaggeration doesn't improve communication.

Indeed. Your characterization of the OF as a reform of the EF is slightly exaggerated.

this is no exaggeration about the OF.

I am at multiple OF masses every Sunday and have never seen any of this. The pastor would murder someone if they did these things.

Our only problem with the purification of vessels is on the Sundays when an elderly deacon does them. You could go to Walmart while he does the purification and get back in time for dismissal.

I don't care what the church did to its liturgy, it would be like middle school. If the light bulbs were tinted a different color, there would be the nerdy kid with the nasally voice declaring the end of the world.

I see what people do and if you see different, you are in another place.

Charles... I have seen too much, have participated in deep regret, suffered their ignorance and blindness, and will no longer give talent or time to any part of it. And now, God is dealing with us.

the OF is a reform of the EF in the vernacular.

A 'reform', eh? Removing the pedalboard from the organ, and then reversing the direction of ascending pitches on the keyboards, is less a "reform" than OF of EF. YMMV.

Again, exaggeration. I have compared the two masses and find little difference in the texts. They are in different languages but Roman Missal 3 is a direct translation that says the same. Other than what has happened to music in some places, a lot of the complaints are on the level of not liking the color of the new light switches. But father took 2 and 1/2 steps to the right instead of 3. That's fine since it is not important.

Speaking of pedalboards, have you ever played a French Baroque instrument with the short pedals? That increased my admiration of the early French organists greatly.

Chris, I have looked at Eucharistic Prayer I and compared it with the missal the Trads are using - 1962 I'm sure. Where are the differences? The consecration is the same, the prayers are for any practical purposes, identical. There's less lace, theatrical gestures, and other non essentials. It is still the mass.

Mystery of faith is still there. We sing it every Sunday, or did until the plague hit. All this sounds like the idiocy surrounding pro multis. Thank the lord those fools finally were shut up by the new missal.

I mentioned that the music has suffered. The Offertory just doesn't adapt to all the actions that are now part of it. They have folded the collection of money with bringing the elements to the altar and expect a choir anthem at the same time. It is too much at one time.

Mystery of Faith: As a character on an old TV show used to say, "what you talkin' about Willis?"

English: "We proclaim your death o Lord and profess your resurrection until you come again." That's the only setting we use for English masses.

Latin: "Mortem tuam annuntiamus..." We use this for Latin masses and I don't think it has ever changed.

There is confusion with the Kyrie. I maintain it isn't penitential but part of a litany. Some don't agree.

I like Mortem tuam far better than the other acclamations so that is the only one I use. That part of the mass surrounding the gospel was changed, to be sure.

I don't have a 1962 missal. The 1959 is the latest I own.

We do have Propers for offertory but only use them every other week when the schola is present. They tend to overwhelm the cantor in the other weeks. I knew that the memorial acclamation has multiple settings and there were some changes. We do the same one all the time, mortem tuam or its English equivalent. The psalms have been totally rearranged but that one is above my pay grade. I just follow the book.

Prior to 1969 mystery of faith was included in the consecration. Some things were moved around during the reforms. The old version was added before the 6th century in a response to the Manicheans who denied the goodness of material things. The new "the mystery of faith" refers, in its new context, to "the entire mystery of salvation through Christ's death, resurrection and ascension, which is made present in the celebration of the Eucharist" So my sources tell me. But in other words, it's still there.

Thanks for this comparison. I don't attend EF masses (tired and go home after playing for OF masses). Non-partisan? That's good - and rare.

I realize some changes were made, some things were not changed but moved around, and rubrics overall simplified. In essence, if the priest simply said the words of consecration - this is my body - blood - nothing else would be necessary. So dropping a psalm is nothing critical. Although I must admit I liked the prayers at the foot of the altar better than the current greeting. Likewise, the Kyrie has become disposable for any practical purpose. I am only allowed to do it during Lent with our new pastor.

One could take several approaches from the more things change the more they stay the same, to the sky is falling. I do like the greater congregation participation - and no, I don't buy that just being there is actual participation. What I do miss most in the NO is the lack of poetry. Some of it just doesn't scan, as we used to say in literature classes. Roman Missal 3 is a big improvement but the refinement of texts needs to continue.

Music? I don't know if we will ever be back to where we were. Most parishes have abandoned the old music and have no desire to go back. My place is something of an outpost.

still more important, if at all possible, is to go to confession if you are able.

Yes, the antiphon and responsory from Ash Wednesday are still fresh in my mind and very poignant.