You can learn tons by observing rehearsals of effective conductors.

Kevin Allen

Watch the video, it will convince you.

[this was posted late at night, totally failed to state that he is where you are and you should talk with him!]

One can scarcely learn more about the art of conducting an ensemble than observing great orchestral conductors at work. Videos of Celibidache and Karajan, in rehearsal, are illuminating examples of crafting a unified artistry across an entire ensemble. Celibidache was also an excellent choral clinician, seen in his work on Bruckner's Mass in F minor and Fauré's Requiem (both videos available on YouTube). As for Karajan, little needs to be said. The other plentifully-recorded conductor who is worth investigating is Robert Shaw, who developed a plethora of experience teaching intricate works to amateurs who eventually sound anything but.

Once you have the musical fundamentals and artistry from observing orchestral conductors, what is left is to learn the voice in and out so that you may apply it to the choral world. Many choral conductors nowadays preach an individual-centric form of expression that invites each performer to find personal expression in the verbal text of whichever work is at hand. I believe this stems from the histrionic, hyper-subjective textual approach which many singers are taught in their solo experiences to the exclusion of almost everything else. This method is, in my view, inappropriate for liturgical music's very ethos, does not work on a practical level with polyphonic and Gregorian works, and is less productive at building a purely musical ensemble. (Another of Shaw's strengths - he was all about musical fundamentals and unifying those across an amateur ensemble) As orchestral musicians do not have a verbal text and often have no text with which to shape the music, they are forced to delve into musical structure itself and fundamentals like phrasing, tone, expressive intonation, hierarchy of voicing, dynamic contrast, and articulation that are equally applicable to the vocal realm and especially to the Church's treasury of music, both on a liturgical level and a purely musical one.

By learning and singing this music as an independent musician (especially in polyphony where the singer is forced to become independent), you will gradually discover how to put the above ideas into practice in a choral context. This has the double advantage of melding the two schools of musicality and exposing yourself to more repertoire in an industry which requires a near-continuous stream of new pieces. (Unless, of course, you limit yourself to GR1974 and have the entire liturgy planned out for you in advance.) The only remaining step is applying your own personality and non-musical skills in leadership to the task, and that is something that requires experience and personal discovery more than anything else.

I found Erich Leinsdorf's books (especially The Composer's Advocate), as well as biographies of and interviews with famous conductors (Klemperer and Murakami's recent book with Ozawa were my favourites) to be helpful reading that offered oft-ignored viewpoints. Playing polyphonic keyboard music (Bach, of course, but anything in that vein will work) and learning how to properly voice, balance, and articulate each individual line will be invaluable experience for doing the same (or the opposite, depending on how you look at it) with a multi-voice choir, especially (but not exclusively) in Renaissance polyphony.

I never thought that I would have to disagree with Schonbergian, but I must. Orchestral and choral conducting are quite distinct disciplines. One will not learn from Karajan and colleagues how to direct Lassus, a Handel chorus, a Bach motet, a Parry anthem, chant, or any other choral genre. In fact, one will not learn from what he does to Mozart or Beethoven how to conduct either one of them (except how to make Mahler out of them and romantisise them). As for Shaw, great as he was, he would be a mentor only for someone who is looking to see all choral music through a romantic lens.

There are a few who manage to straddle the two camps of choral vs orchestral music - such as Harnoncourt, McCreesh, Mariner, Saval, and others. But - Mutti's Ninth is not to be missed, nor Barenboim's Beethoven's choral fantasy - but such works are far from a church musician's fare.

The way to learn choral conducting is from experience in choirs and a close study of their directors. Also, watch videos of great choirs - especially English cathedral and collegiate choirs.

Voice lessons would also be a good thing to have under your belt; as would the study of vocal paedagogy.

Put yourself under the wing of a really good church choral director.
Hear every good choir that you can on videos or live - and carefully watch their directors and meet them.

And, stay on this forum for a good immersion in church music and church music culture.

Do you have any schools in your area that teach conducting? Even some of the so-called junior colleges here have conducting courses. One thing I would be careful of, is boxing yourself into one narrow area of music written in one general era. I know someone who never studied music in a college but learned conducting at "sacred music" workshops and a Colloquium or two. She doesn't know standard conducting patterns, waves her arms in circles and thinks everything is influenced by Solesmes. One of her choir members told me, "I wish you could teach her a downbeat." I replied that she isn't my problem. Get a broad-based education and don't confine yourself to a musical niche. Don't be one of Swift's Houyhnhnms who are so rational and devoid of emotion they are irrational and nonsensical. Study Romantic music, too, since you need to know that, as well as other schools of music.

All that depends on choir size, location, and how far the choir is spread out. I have wondered if I can introduce a gesture for the soprano who never looks up from her music and cuts off a partial beat late. Maybe I could practice a hymnal toss toward her head instead of giving a standard cut off. An entertaining thought. Every situation is different and you can not know too much. Salieri is right. Go experience the best, the worst, and the in between. That knowledge will serve you well.

individual-centric form of expression that invites each performer to find personal expression in the verbal text of whichever work is at hand. I believe this stems from the histrionic, hyper-subjective textual approach which many singers are taught in their solo experiences to the exclusion of almost everything else.

Well, yes, but............recall that in his 1985 Vienna lecture, Ratzinger deliberately emphasized the word (Word), saying that music is 'the enfleshment' of the word.

Your singers must understand the word/text--not so that they can personalize the music, but so the composer's realization of the particular text informs their choral singing.

I've sung under Shaw--the Beethoven Solemnis. Did the same piece under Schermerhorn, whose interpretation was just a tad 'hotter.' Both worked very well.

I have wondered if I can introduce a gesture

I finally decided it was unfair to the offender's neighbors to point to my elbow and raise my eyebrows, but then we're all pretty nice folk.

Peter Phillips is a consummate early music director (of the Tallis Scholars, of course), and I've had the opportunity to be in one of his master classes (at UVa, with Zephyrus). I'm pretty sure a few videos of Phillips choral technique are available (I haven't looked).

I've played & sung under Robert Shaw, and he was indeed of a romantic bent, although his Brahms German Requiem and the Stravinsky of Psalms were outstandingly led, giving me much insight as an undergraduate. As an adult, I found conducting studies with Margaret Hillis (founder and director of the Chicago Symphony Chorus) most illuminating (she was a stickler for intense score study!).

I was also fortunate enough to sing in church choirs of Russell Paxton (UW-Madison) and Robert Simpson (Westminster Choir College), and gained valuable experience from both of them.

These musical experiences (rather than simply observations, of which I've had many) are indelibly imprinted on me, along with numerous others.

Try to make music & work with excellent choral conductors!

Oh, the Houston Robert Simpson is a different person!! The one I referred to passed away several years ago, after retiring to Atlanta from Princeton. Indeed, Robert in Houston must be outstanding, although I've never had the fortune to meet him.

Schonbergian -

Your 'hope' is not at all ill-founded. My reference was solely to the hymn-chorale singing in many, very many, Lutheran churches. Such rough song is typical of Lutherans, at least in this country, and, I suspect, would be widespread in Germany as well (though I have no experience of the church music situation there). I think that this is probably an in-grained praxis which has its roots in the very isometric, beat-driven, rhythms of early Lutheranism (the isometric version of Ein feste Burg as it appears in Lutheran hymnals would be a well-known case in point). Fear not, you are quite right about Bach, Brahms, Schubert, et al.

Let me add that if I had to choose betwixt the rhythmically brutal singing of many Lutheran congregations and the mumble singing which is common in Catholic churches I would choose the former - at least it's alive!
___________________________________

And, about your singing in Toronto - I attended the national convention of the RCCO at Charlottesville, Prince Edward Island back in 2002 or so. One evening we had a presentation at an evangelical church at which the hymn singing was, as you say, 'formidable'. Brutally so. Definitely beat driven, relentless, visceral. One is almost tempted to call it tuned shouting.

Houston Robert Simpson just won a Grammy for the complete Duruflé choral works.

Conducting, like singing, is often a controversial topic. Discussions break down over definitions, the greatness or its opposite in some favorite conductor or another, "choral technique" vs. "instrumental technique".

I highly recommend learning a good solid baton technique based on the best orchestral technique. There are several good books on conducting that cover patterns and the like. The great problem is really what to do with those things learned in this study. It is unfortunate that there are quite a few choral "conductors" who do try to beat out too many syllables. I was greatly amused by seeing one of them try to teach a group to conduct the Halleluia from Messiah. Such nonsense has become pretty rare by now, but there is a great deal of faking it going on still.

My advice is to learn a sound basic technique and then concentrate on how to use it to make music with full sensitivity to the text and to the building of your choir. A conductor is not a "time beater" and needs a full tool kit when it comes to rehearsal procedures, vocal training techniques, and leadership principles. I have known people with poor to fair baton technique, but who had good ears, good musicianship, and leadership skills who got quite good results. Good technical baton skill is great and can save a lot of time, but without these other qualities the conductor is greatly handicapped.

In the (otherwise good) book that you reference the author speaks of the difference between choral and instrumental directing as that in choral directing every syllable or word is beat. I would like to know where he got this absurd notion.
-- M. Jackson Osborn

McElheran says he gets this idea of "choral conducting" as "beating every note" from "many writers," whom he doesn't identify, but he associates it with second rate a capella music ranging from barbershop quartets to "lushed up spirituals."

It's clear that he disagrees with the notion that choral conductors should beat every note. He calls the tendency to distinguish between "choral" and "instrumental" conducting "lamentable", says that the great masters didn't make a big distinction between vocal and instrumental music, and points out two "grave limitations" of choirs conducted by beating every note: they can't perform with instrumentalists, who need regular beat patterns; and they can't perform polyphony. He concludes by remarking that "all the best choirs he has heard were conducted by directors using 'orchestral technique'" (with the exception of unbarred chants).

See pp. 10-12 in the Google Books preview.

...barbershop quartets to "lushed up spirituals."

Such genres are hardly benchmarks or exemplars for the directing of serious choral music, are they?
Why would anyone think that they were or propose that they were?
Familiarity with the direction of serious music, with the English choral tradition, with outstanding American choirs and their directors seems to be lacking.

Yet I agree with his opinion whole-heartedly. Orchestras will not put up with something like that - most choirs wouldn't know better.

Hardest choral conducting class or lessons I've ever had were taught by a professor who was a crossover to choral from orchestral conducting.

Aside from her personal idiosyncrasies as a teacher (which added Hitchcockian levels of suspense to your student experience), she expected choral conducting that was sensitive to the formidable demands and expectations of instrumentalists playing along with your choir. After all, it's (on my view) a very desirable situation to have to conduct both, simultaneously!

I've always enjoyed this video of my esteemed predecessor & beloved son of my current parish conducting at the Oregon Bach Festival (he holds a Master's Degree in Orchestral Conducting, which he teaches at University out there on the West Coast). I think he shows choir and orchestra equally what they need, and gives the thing such life:

Aaron conducts Bach

While conducting is important, what is more important is the rehearsal. There is only so much a conductor is going to be able to do on the spur of the moment during a performance. You could have the best stick technique in the world, but if you haven’t communicated during rehearsals, it is not going to do you much good.

The key I would think is knowing what you are going to expect from your choir and then communicating that to the choir effectively. It is also in knowing what your choir needs from you. For example, is there a tricky entrance that a particular section will need a clear cue from you to execute?

Although it’s on the instrumental side, there was a recording of the late Claudio Abbado conducting the Brandenburg Concertos with a carefully selected group. For one of the concertos, he did not even conduct them. He just let them go and perform the piece. He had so clearly communicated what he wanted to his performers and knew they were good enough to not need anything more from him during performance, that he did not even need to conduct. There’s a good argument that that was perfect conducting technique.

Expression of the musical and textual content of the work at hand may require a variety of things from a conductor. Knowing what you want, how far you can expect to get with the forces at hand and what they will need from you to approach it, and having the variety and breadth of technique, musicianship, leadership skill, and communication skill to get it across are all part of the job and these are demanding requirements.

I have seen conductors who have a great verbal knack, others who speak little, but demonstrate a phrase here and there to good effect, still others who have a magical way with gesture, and on and on. The skills are many, but the conductor has to call upon personal resources from personality, technical skill, etc. to put it together. Discovering and employing these resources is the quest we are all on while we conduct singers and instrumentalists. There should be no division between choral and instrumental conductors. Roger Wagner could go on a bit of a tirade about this particular issue. The task is to solve the requirements of the music.

Depends on what you want to learn. I had an amazing teacher, who was able to turn sows ears into silk purses.

I should have notes around somewhere. PM me if you are interested.

Her only downfall was Latin pronunciation. I shoved a Liber Usualis under her nose, but she remained unmoved. In all other things, she did wonderful work.