Sung EF Collect ending
  • cathedralorganist
    Posts: 6
    In a sung EF Mass, the Collect concludes with a descending whole step ("Per omnia saecula saecuLO-RUM"), and the Amen response ascends the whole step back up. However, our celebrant often ends with a descending half step instead. What is the proper sung response in this case - to sing the half step back up, or to start the "Amen" down a half step from where the priest ended, in order to give a whole step up?
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    Unless the issue is one of intonation, my go-to is responding in kind (as we would normally be accustomed), according to the call - rather than singing the designated melodic response to a different call.
    If concerned that the priest simply doesn't know how he should be singing this phrase, you could always talk to him.
    There is always the more passive-agressive (not recommended) version, too: not responding, and waiting on the priest to lead the Amen.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Incardination
    Posts: 832
    There are five tones for orations, the Festal tone, two Ferial tones, the Solemn tone, and the Simple tone.

    Festal (L.U. pg 98) = Do. Do. (dots indicating dotted notes).
    Ferial (L.U. pg 99) = either recto tone for the prayer so presumably Do. Do. for the response OR similar to the Simple tone with a descending minor third and therefore Ti. Do. for the response. These are described in the verbiage on that page.
    Solemn (L.U. pg 100) = Sol. La.
    Simple (L.U. pg 102) = Ti. Do.

    When the termination is fictional, there is no proper response.

    Were I placed in this situation, I would choose Do. Do. although Ti. Do. would also work. I most definitely would not try to determine another half-step - which would be more confusing, I think, particularly as two consecutive descending half-steps is not typical in the chant scale - to arrive at a Sol. La. in response to La. Si. (or the equivalent Te. Do. in response to Do. Ti.).
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen JonathanKK
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    One thing that should be asked: Is the celebrant a Roman Rite priest using the Roman Missal or a Religious using the Missal of his order? Is he an Anglophile? If he is a religious using the Missal of his order, there might be some variations in the tones. Also, if he is an Anglophile, he might have an affectation to use the Solemn Tone from the Sarum Rite, which on the page looks similar to the Roman Solemn Tone, but recites on Fa and cadences on Mi, rather than the usual recitation on La, cadencing to Sol, in which case the AMEN would be Mi. Fa. (or Mi Mi.-Fa.). I think this is also true of the Dominican Rite, &c.
    Thanked by 3Incardination CHGiffen M. Jackson Osborn
  • JonathanKKJonathanKK
    Posts: 542
    Just to note, the second ferial tone cannot be interpreted as having Ti. Do. as the response, because it is described as being in all things the same as the first ferial tone except for the fact that at the end of the Prayer and at the end of the conclusion the voice is lowered a minor third. The response is Do. Do. the same as the first ferial tone.

    For a notated example, see Cantus Selecti p. 294*.
    Thanked by 2Incardination CHGiffen
  • Incardination
    Posts: 832
    Yes, JonathanKK, you are quite correct... Do.Do. instead of Ti.Do. Don't know what I was thinking! :)
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    The Sarum formula is as given above by Salieri. It may or may not be found in other uses. It is to my chagrin that this Sarum formula is not widespread in the Ordinariate - at least in the US. I suspect that it is more common in Britain and the dominions than in the US. We had at Walsingham some years ago an English pair of priestly twins (Frs David and Bruce Noble, now deceased), one of whom was pastor of Walsingham for several years, who used the Sarum formula exclusively.
  • WGS
    Posts: 300
    JonathanKK
    The last page of my copy of Cantus Selecti is identified as "292*". The "imprimatur" and "copyright" are of 1949 and there is a reference in French to a 1957 prohibition of unauthorized copying.

    Has there been a more recent authorized copy or reprint of Cantus Selecti with more pages?
  • JonathanKKJonathanKK
    Posts: 542
    I was going off of the .pdf that I have from musicasacra.com HERE.
  • WGS
    Posts: 300
    Thanks.
    It's interesting that the title of my book is "CANTUS SELECTI", whereas the title page title for the online scanned version is "CANTUS SELECTI AD BENEDICTIONEM SS.MI SACRAMENTI".
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