Credo II, V and VII
  • Hello,

    When is it appropriate to sing Credo II, Credo V, and Credo VII?

    Is there a liturgical calendar of Mass settings with appropriate Credo anywhere?

    Thank you for your help!

    Rebekah
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    When is it appropriate to sing Credo II, Credo V, and Credo VII?
    Anyday when the Ordo or Missal tell you we have a Creed...

    O.K. to be more helpful,
    We sing Credo I on Feasts, Credo II in Advent and Lent, Credo IV on green Sundays and Credo VI on days the full choir can't sing a polyphonic Credo.
    Is there a liturgical calendar of Mass settings with appropriate Credo anywhere?

    Not an official one, but a search on here will find at least one post on such things.

    The only official note we have is Credo I is the authentic tone, others can be used when customary this is a quote from the L.U. The other note is that in older books Credo III is subtitled as 'de Angelis', also Credo IV is subtitled 'Cardinalis'.

    Of course there are other chant Credo the Henri du Mont settings.

    I would suggest that each of the Mass settings you use, should be paired with a Credo. Unless you are singing everyday I suggest not trying to sing every Mass setting, and Credo.
  • In our case, we simply cycle through all seven Credo settings (including the one from the 1927 Graduale) through the year so there is essentially even distribution across the season. I typically use Credo VI for Lent because I find it penitential in character, but clearly all have a different perspective as you can see from Tomjaw's response above.

    I don't find it useful to match it with a given ordinary setting.

    For polyphonic Masses, I typically learn the Credo after we've got the full setting - sometimes a year or three later. Once learned, we schedule that Credo anytime we use that part-setting. Similarly with extraordinary Ordinary settings (du Mont, St. Hildegard, etc.). We learn those a year or three later, and use one of the seven settings that we feel relatively comfortable with otherwise.

    Since repetition is a useful pedagogical tool, I use Excel to auto-count my usages of each Credo, each Ordinary setting, each motet, each hymn to make sure I avoid (as best I can) single use, over-use, or under-use, when building out my schedule at the beginning of a given season. For Credo usage this season:
    I 7
    II 7
    III 8
    IV 7
    V 6
    VI 7
    VII 6

    For most of the Credo settings, I try regular recurrent patterns so that the choir has comfort level, to divide into two recurrences. So Credo I, I might schedule 4x in a row, and then later in the year 3x in a row. That allows review of each setting and establishing a comfort level. Credo VI is the exception - since I typically use that as a penitential Credo, it is for some combination of Septuagesima-tide and Lent, although I have sometimes split its use between Advent and Lent.

    In answer to your question, there is no rule that specifies which setting to use when. Each director comes up with their own approach. I knew someone who always used IV for Marian feasts. Lots of places only use I and III (which I find unfortunate, since each setting has a unique flavor).

    As mentioned above, we use all Credo settings each year. For the Masses and ad-lib chants in the Kyriale, we use all settings across a 3 year schedule. I've found that doing this dramatically improves the choir's ability to sing chant well - they see a lot of different thematic devices and don't take anything for granted.

    EDIT: I should add that as part of whole premise of incorporating this pedagogically, we also switch the order of alternation every 3 years... so, in the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, while the men typically begin following the intonation alternating against the ladies, next season, the ladies will begin following the intonation and alternate against the men. It is an extension of not taking things for granted, and ensuring that everyone is familiar with the entirety of the Kyriale. Mass IX and X Gloria; Kyrie 1 ad lib; Gloria 1 ad lib - four exceptions, where because of the range, ladies always start.
  • It's worth noting here that the Sarum rite only ever had Credo I, and many American congregations only ever learned Credo III.

    We do 1,3, and 4 in rotation. My sense is that the Credo is a communal confession, so I'd rather do chant than polyphony. Perhaps next summer I'll introduce another Credo.
  • RobertRobert
    Posts: 343
    According to Justine Ward (for what it's worth):

    Credo I. The best according to Dom Mocquereau.
    Credo V. The next best.
    Credo VI. The next best.
    Credo III. Frankly modern but unobjectionable.
    Credo IV. Not Gregorian Chant but the soprano voice stripped off a polyphonic composition.
    Credo II. The worst of all. A poor, mixed up adaptation of Credo I.
  • Interesting, Robert!! Lots of respect for Justine Ward... but I wouldn't ever presume to rank chants in terms of "best" to "worst". I know there are chants that I didn't initially like - and after beating against them for a long time (sometimes, years) discovered that the problem was with me and not with the chant! I do have favorite chants... which I might share with a group I'm directing, but I wouldn't presume beyond that.

    As for the Credos, I'll say that there is something in each one that can be evocative. For 2, it is the intriguing termination on the majority of the phrases - which requires work to be artful lest it become clueless. But the terminations, when well-done, can be very thought-provoking.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • I'm sad to read such a commentary about Credo IV. I've been advocating for its use because I find it so hauntingly beautiful.
  • We always use Credo I during Advent, Credo II during Lent, Credo III during most Sundays After Pentecost and on Christmas, and Credo IV during some Sundays After Pentecost and during Eastertide, as the ascending patterns in the latter lines of text are, as the above poster expressed it, "hauntingly beautiful".
  • Cantus67Cantus67
    Posts: 208
    This text is on the last page where the Kyriale et Credo are in the Liber.

    "This Ordinary is NOT meant to be a matter of hard and fast rule : chants from one Mass may be used together with those from others, the Ferial Masses excepted. In the same way, in ordr to add greater solemnity one or more of the following may be employed." Liber Usualis 1962 pg. 78

    So pretty much it's all about opinion................Unless otherwise stated.
    Thanked by 1puretonesoprano
  • As many have noted, you may really use any Credo setting any time there is a Credo to be sung. As opposed to the other Ordinary Texts which are divided into 18 settings (not counting the ad lib ones) and recommended (but not by any means required) for certain ranks of feasts or types of ferias, there is literally not even a recommendation for the Credo settings, except (as someone noted) the note that Credo I is "the authentic tone." (Personally, I would be interested to know exactly what that means.)

    I have only been a part of two choirs/churches that actually sing a Credo on Sundays and feasts.

    One of them is my current parish (FSSP). Their custom is to use Credo III most of the time, with Credo I and Credo IV being used occasionally throughout the year on certain feasts.

    The other was Clear Creek Abbey, where I spent 15 months. Their custom is to use Credo I (being the "authentic" tone, whatever that is) on all Green Sundays. They would use Credo III for the days ranked as "Feast" which require a Creed - which is not very many, in the Novus Ordo Calendar - and Credo V for all "Solemnities." They would use Credo IV for Sundays during Eastertide after the Octave. Otherwise, they only use Credos II, IV, and VI during the Octaves of Christmas, Easter, and Pentecost, in alternation throughout the remaining 6 (or less) days of the Octave. As an aside, for the Kyriale they basically follow the recommendations found in the Liber, modified to fit the Novus Ordo's ranking system.
  • (OF) We use an Englished Credo III on all Sundays and whenever there is a sung Mass requiring the Creed. I would prefer we use Credo I, but there's no Englished version in the St. Michael hymnal (our hymnal), and the PIPs are 99% unwilling to learn/sing a Latin Credo. At the end of the day, I'm just happy we get to sing it regularly, regardless of language and melody.
    Thanked by 1GregoryWeber
  • so hauntingly beautiful.


    Some of you on here know Dr. Wassim Sarweh. I was introduced to Credo IV through a Youtube video of him singing it in (if memory serves) "pre-Solesmes" style, drone and all. Gorgeous. To this day I'm tempted to zip through the climaci whenever we sing it.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • He still in Detroit?
  • I wish! He had passport issues so he couldn't play for St. Josaphat anymore. From what I've gathered he still plays in Windsor from time to time.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    He’s not a doctor unless I missed something.
    He still plays at St. Benedict TLM Community in Windsor and the Oakland County TLM in Detroit every week as far as I know.
  • Matthew would know better than I - and I just I instinctively refer to my superiors as « Doctor » by default. An old habit.
  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    Haha @StimsonInRehab ^ so true. What you think about your being a doctor?

    @Hugh do you have a calendar of when you use the various credos?
  • dhalkjdhalkj
    Posts: 61
    Lots of chants were used verbatim as the cantus firmus sung by one voice in a polyphonic composition. It does not follow that because Credo IV exists in such a version that it was not a pre-existent melody, just that there was no manuscript evidence yet identified by the scholarship of the day.
    Thanked by 1JonathanKK
  • The other was Clear Creek Abbey, ... They would use Credo III for the days ranked as "Feast" which require a Creed - which is not very many, in the Novus Ordo Calendar ... for the Kyriale they basically follow the recommendations found in the Liber, modified to fit the Novus Ordo's ranking system.

    Somebody could explain this? I always thought that Clear Creek uses the Vetus Ordo and that they just have the Feasts of the Saints on the dates they have in Novus Ordo. But how they are able to use rubrics regulating the use of Credo and feast ranking foreign to the traditional form of Roman rite?