Diocesan Employment rules - Comments on your area?
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    I am seeking comments on what y'all might know about your diocesan employment rules where you are.
    I have a situation here...I am employed full time at one diocesan institution. I recently had an offer to accept a part time teaching position for 8 hours a week. It is a school in the diocese, though the school is independently funded, and it's funding does not come from the diocese.
    However the diocese is saying I cannot take the part time job (Even thought it fits perfectly with my other job schedule) because I would be paid twice, even though the funding for the part time work does not come form the diocese. So far as well, my rector agrees and has forbidden me
    As well, this is a no contract diocese, and I don't even have a job description for my full time position. Of course, like all of you, I put in well past my 40 house and of course Sundays... etc.
    So if you work for this diocese, your income is fixed and you in no way have the possibility of increasing that, you are stuck. I have two children, and when i heard about this opportunity, i was thrilled, now i am depressed.
    Comments please??
  • Incardination
    Posts: 832
    That is most unfortunate - hope that you can find a way around that. I am not positive, but I believe that to be the case in our diocese as well... I would talk to the diocesan office to see if there is anyway to circumnavigate the issue. Perhaps there is a way of working it in under a different scenario.

    Best of luck!!
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    What if you asked the school to change the position into a 1099 independent contractor position and increased the stipend a bit (to cover the extra amount you're going to have to pay in taxes)? Since they won't have to pay into the various things they would if you were an employee, it would be a wash for them.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    At one time, I held two positions with the diocese. I taught school full time, and also served as a DM/Organist in a parish. I was paid separately for the two. Several teachers held more than one job. No one cared as long as the secondary jobs didn't interfere with the work.
  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 440
    In some parts of the world, health and safety rules also come in to play here: if a job could be stressful, then an employer is well within their rights to refuse you permission to take on outside work which would add to the stress levels.

    In another country whose employment laws I know a bit about, you're not allowed to work for more than 48 hours per week on average across all jobs - and all your employers are responsible for making sure that you don't.

    One income-raised work around is to be self-employed doing things which generate royalites and advertising revenues.
  • OrganistRob320OrganistRob320
    Posts: 164
    I'd imagine it has something to do with having to pay overtime, especially since though the school may be funded separately, if all payroll is handled through the Diocese (as it was in a previous position I held) then they would be legally required to pay you overtime for the second job over a certain income cap. They had a Diocesan-wide meeting to discuss this and did not have information when several questions were asked about a 30-40 hour school position and also a 15-25 hour church position held by one person. They said the overtime charge would go to the institution that caused the hours to go beyond 40.... I raised the pertinent question about Holy Week and how I spent more than 40 hours in actual Liturgical services from just my Parish position... they did not like learning that we musicians have schedules like that....
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  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    Yah and a big part of the probLem is that that dont pay up egnough to support a small family on one job. Usually priests have no clue about this.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    I am not sure they have no clue. Rather, they prefer think they are more the beggar than anyone else.
    Thanked by 1ghmus7
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,325
    I was only able to support my family because I worked a full-time job at a parish + a part-time job at another Catholic institution. Read whatever you want to into that, I suppose.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    [You lived so lavishly that you needed two salaries to enjoy the life to which you had somehow become accustomed as either a Catholic school teacher or a Catholic musician?]
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  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,325
    Yes, CGZ, we were living large in our 2-bedroom apartment with 3 small children! Truly extravagant!
    Thanked by 3Elmar CharlesW ghmus7
  • m_r_taylor
    Posts: 326
    .
    Thanked by 4tomjaw Elmar CharlesW irishtenor
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    [Irish Tenor, Perhaps your pastor was recently relocated from CharlesW's parish, where everyone knows he doesn't need the money in his secondretirement?]
    Thanked by 1irishtenor
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Actually, I have retired 3 times now. I was recently asked to return half-time to the federal agency for which I worked 20 years some time ago. Now I need the money even less than before. God is good, and generous.
    Thanked by 2Carol Salieri
  • mmeladirectress
    Posts: 1,100
    >> Actually, I have retired 3 times now.
    one more and I think you tie with Frank Sinatra, yes? :-D
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Hardly anyone is old enough to remember Jack Paar, an early host of the Tonight Show. He retired at least twice a year, or so it seemed.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Now I need the money even less than before.

    If you have a surplus, Charles, I'd be most happy to relieve you of your burden!
    Thanked by 2CharlesW Elmar
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Salieri, it seems to have always annoyed CGZ that I don't need money. I have been well provided for by a gracious Lord for which I am thankful. Am I super rich, no. Do I live simply, yes. Do I want for anything, no. Do I spend for every shiny toy that catches my eye, no I don't do that either. Do I keep relatives and friends who mangle their own finances at a distance, yes I do.
    Thanked by 2Carol ghmus7
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    [So I'm clear on this, it does not trouble me that you don't need money. Humor doesn't translate so well on the internet.]
    Thanked by 2Elmar tomjaw
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    True, it doesn't.
    Thanked by 2Elmar tomjaw
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 402
    Yah and a big part of the probLem is that that dont pay up egnough to support a small family on one job. Usually priests have no clue about this.


    And yet it’s right there in Canon Law that they are to pay those who contribute to the parish sufficiently to provide for their family.

    Considering priests, generally speaking, aren’t responsible for paying for housing costs (rent/mortgages/insurance/property taxes/utilities), and get a vehicle allowance, food allowance, cell phone allowance, (not to mention such expenses are, generally speaking, claimable expenses at tax time), etc on top of their income and health benefits/insurance from the Diocese, it’s very possible that many priests really are clueless as to what it actually costs to live now. I bet if priests let a frugal stay at home mother do the budget for the parish, she would find the money to pay parish employees more.
    Thanked by 4Elmar CharlesW Carol ghmus7
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    Considering priests, generally speaking, aren’t responsible for paying for housing costs (rent/mortgages/insurance/property taxes/utilities), and get a vehicle allowance, food allowance, cell phone allowance,...


    Considering bishops are those making the rules... lets swop the second word for 'bishop'. Well in that case many of them are well aware of having to support a 'modern' family, perhaps as so many of them (calling uncle Ted and he is far from being a pit of filth in a landscape of purity) have been supporting a diverse family. This may explain why there is so little money to pay a fair salary.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    WELL....thanks for all this input - UPDATE - the school hired someone else. Whether that was going to happen anyway, or whether they passed on me because of the mess, I am not sure. See what happens when you are honest and open? Everybody told me I should have just not said anything and taken the job.

    I'm just going to gripe a little more...does anyone notice the disconnect in the RC church about teaching the faithful to be "open to life" - to be open to as many children as possible...however laypeople who work for the church are not paid enough to support families. I cannot afford the $1000 a month for the standard medical insurance that the diocese "offers" for my children.

    I have been doing this like all of you for 27 years. According to the AGO salary guide, I am at the very top of the scale. However I am paid less than a third of that and could not support my two boys if I did not take a lot of extra work from protestants...who don't seem to have these bizarre conflicts.
    Thanked by 1irishtenor
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,325
    It is truly a pity, Greg. I'm in another (much more lucrative) field now because I, even when I made a reasonably high income for a church musician, couldn't count on it. We have absolutely zero job security and work crazy hours for modest pay. It's not a good plan for supporting a family.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    It may help to understand that the apparent governing assumption of the Church's pastors regarding people who provide services to it are that such people are clerics or religious brothers or sisters. It would rather cling desperately to that assumption than address reality with integrity.
  • PolskaPiano
    Posts: 255
    I haven't been able to read everything, but this makes me go hmmmm. I don't know how I would survive without my other work.

    I am in a US diocese and it was no secret that I taught once a week at my children's school in addition to working my full time job at this parish. (Though this pastor is incredibly aware of the needs of families and nature of liturgical music and allows me flex time and 32 hours full time work.) On top of this I teach piano.
  • Carol
    Posts: 856
    Whether a musician is a church musician or a secular musician, don't you think that it is typical for most musicians to work more than one "gig" to make a living? It's a patchwork of income sources for all but the luckiest and/or most talented.
    Thanked by 4CHGiffen CharlesW Incardination Elmar
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Luck and talent are important, but...

    Sometimes connections, timing, and unanticipated interactions with others in the right place are responsible for getting placed in a particular job. Rhyme and reason are not always apparent.
    Thanked by 5tomjaw CHGiffen Incardination Elmar Carol
  • Carol
    Posts: 856
    CharlesW I would call that the unseen Hand of God.
    Thanked by 2mmeladirectress CharlesW
  • Chris_McAvoyChris_McAvoy
    Posts: 389
    When the other injustices and errors in the typical visible dioceses of the Roman Catholic Church are removed, than the ability to be paid a just wage shall prevail. Yet at this time there is a Lord Pope of Rome referring to "the Father-Mother Creator God” instead of the "God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, an undivided Trinity". as he is known by all Catholic Christians of ages past.

    Lay faithful must not be complacent to accept bishops and clergy who have a dead faith to lead the flock. This is the root cause of the decline in all areas of the Church. You must not be silent. We live in evil times, therefore the lies must be rebuked or God will judge us as committing a sin of omission and we shall reap what we sow.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    Chris, would you please provide a citation for that phrase which you attribute to Pope Francis?
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  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    It's an unofficial English rendering from no. 121 of the Spanish language Instrumentum Laboris"

    http://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/it/bollettino/pubblico/2019/06/17/0521/01081.html#spa

    It's not Pope Francis speaking, and it's not a replacement for the Trinity but an attempt to characterize pre-Christian belief, much as one might characterize elements of Classical philosophy (in the Athens vs Jerusalem sense).
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    Thanks, Liam. What source does Chris have for his alleged quote from the Pope?
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    A google-translate version of the IL was making rounds on reddit and elsewhere after it was published in the early summer, and online comment providers, as it were, have been doing what people do in finding fodder for their arguments. It's a living for some, or so it seems.
  • Chris_McAvoyChris_McAvoy
    Posts: 389
    https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2015/12/god-is-father-and-mother-as-jubilee-of.html

    Q: According to the Bible, the place where God’s mercy dwells is the womb, the maternal insides of God, which are moved to the point of forgiving sin. Can the Jubilee of Mercy be an occasion to rediscover God’s ”maternity”? Is there also a more “feminine” aspect of the Church to appreciate?

    Pope Francis: Yes, He himself affirms it when He says in Isaiah that perhaps a mother can forget her child, a mother can also forget her child ... “I, instead, will never forget you.” Here God’s maternal dimension is seen. Not everyone understands when there is talk of “God’s maternity,” it’s not a popular language – in the good sense of the word – it seems a language that is somewhat chosen. Therefore, I prefer to use tenderness, proper to a mother, the tenderness of God, tenderness born from the paternal insides. God is Father and Mother


    Call it mistranslation all you like, but there is so much evidence of this type of error in His holiness that it is impossible to ignore it and to believe it an innocent mistake is impossible.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    That's not what you cited, Chris. Here are the exact words you attributed to the Pope:
    image

    If you're going to lecture us about how "the lies must be rebuked", you ought to be more circumspect about your own deficient scholarship.
    misquote.png
    724 x 76 - 20K
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  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    Yes, that's called a bait-and-switch.
  • PolskaPiano
    Posts: 255
    Wait- what he said is exactly biblical. Man and woman are made in the image of God. Imago Dei. That means feminine qualities will be found to their perfection in God as well as masculine qualities. God is pure spirit. Read in complete context to the question given him, Pope Francis's description is accurate and even biblical, not a reason cry apocolypse. That being said, I don't agree with the naming of God as mother as they muddies the waters with political overtones, not the least that he is called Abba (daddy) in scripture. What I love about catholicism is the intellectual tradition. We can tease out these seemingly small yet very significant things in our search to know God.
    Thanked by 4a_f_hawkins Schönbergian CHGiffen Elmar
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    There's enough to criticize about Francis without resorting to clear mis-interpretations of the handful of legitimate things he's said.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    And, to add to PolskaPiano's valid pont, there's enough mother imagery in the Psalms and the Prophets to justify what the Pope said, as quoted on the Rorate site.

    It's sad if anyone is out there on the net spreading inauthentic quotations, to shock Catholics into leaving the Church. Surely none of the venerable and ancient churches would want their members to spread untruths.
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    It’s been a long time, but I recall when listening to Christopher West’s talks on Theology of the Body something about the dual masculine & feminine nature of God, and how marriage and parenthood reflect this to the children of the family. This, in the “both/and” of Catholicism, being paralleled by our relationship to God the Father (which necessitates the Son, etc). We do not know God-as-Mother, but the fullness of His nature is realized in the complementary natures of man and woman.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Ryand,

    I gather that he has changed his presentation but, once upon a time, asking Chris West to speak clearly and in an unambiguously Catholic manner was quite a challenge. Alice von Hildebrand called him on it, and he changed his approach.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    Can a philosopher be unambiguous?
    "I know you think you understood what I said, but what you may not realise is that what you heard is not what I meant"
    Thanked by 2Elmar ghmus7
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Chris,
    I know in that particular part of his talk, West was quoting directly from JPII. I’ve never read the original documents and I’m a poor armchair theologian at best, so I can’t comment on what was presented. My point is that the sentiment does have some precedent to it. The source of it and nuances of it I will leave to those who are qualified to interpret.
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