Dynamics in chant
  • Hugh
    Posts: 198
    My own experience on organ accompaniment is that it drives out subtlety in singing the chant. And not just to an insignificant degree.

    We held many E.F. liturgical conferences in the 1990s in which we sang several hours of the Office. The little hours were invariably unaccompanied. It was at those hours that IMO the psalmody was best sung. By that I mean that the wave (arsis/thesis) of a psalm verse and half verse was learnt and applied at those times. (We had short workshops before each hour to teach the melodies and dynamics.)

    To me, (it was remarkable at first) it was a constant joy that an untrained congregation could pick up and apply the dynamic so well. Why was this? I think the answer is quite simple: not having an organ covering all, everyone could hear the mistakes in volume or length, and by your own lights, or if need be a sharp but charitable jab in the rib from you neighbor, you'd be goaded back to the right path. If the organ is playing, so that the nuances or lack thereof are difficult to discern, the more sensitive singers just give up. The wave is largely drowned out by the sound of the organ: it swamps those observing it, and those not doing so can't hear that they're out of whack. To put it another way: one can distinctly hear when a group is singing together in volume and rhythm (let alone pitch) when it's unaccompanied, as opposed to when it is accompanied.

    I hasten to add that our organists at the greater offices were excellent and sensitive accompanists, who were aware of these nuances and appreciated them (indeed taught them to me). But perhaps being at the organ at the great hours, they were unable to detect the decline in quality of the psalmody at those times, compared to the unaccompanied little hours. Q.E.D.
  • All,

    Would it matter if the accompaniment were (inter alia) doubling the chanted melody or singing a separate voice?
  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    Would it matter if the accompaniment were (inter alia) doubling the chanted melody or singing a separate voice?
    Depends on whether we're talking about choir or congregation. Earlier in the discussion, @m_r_taylor recommended not doubling the melody when accompanying chant. I have a friend who absolutely insists on not doubling the melody. I've experimented with it some myself; as organist-choirmaster, it is possible to accompany with left hand and pedal, and conduct with the right, so that is an advantage.

    On the other hand, congregations accustomed to accompaniment often rely heavily on the organ. I've found this to be even more so the case in Europe. I was present at a Mass in a packed cathedral (thousands of people) where Credo III, sung in alternation with a choir of treble voices, came to a grinding halt because of a wrong chord from the organist.

    In my experience, the biggest challenge in congregational singing of chant is getting them to slow down as they approach full bars. The tendency is always to barrel on ahead. It is unhelpful when the next phrase begins on the same chord, because the only indication of the rhythm is the melody note. I've had to rewrite a few spots in the Bragers and Rossini accompaniments to give the organ a little more leadership in that respect.
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    I probably like chant as much as many - bomb to be thrown here - but I get really tired of constant unaccompanied music. The human voice may be God's greatest instrument, but it isn't always the most pleasant, interesting, or highly developed. That is why I don't do chant all the time but pull from other schools of music to give my own ears a break. That doesn't mean accompaniment should overpower the singers. A mature and experienced organist wont do that. I have found some younger students are carried away with the power of the organ and blast everyone all the time. We have a case of that in a local parish - not mine, thankfully. Chant and organ can work together effectively.
  • m_r_taylor
    Posts: 314
    Earlier in the discussion, @m_r_taylor recommended not doubling the melody when accompanying chant.


    Just to clarify my statement, that wouldn't be my choice all the time, but I would definitely consider doing it in the case of a single cantor who was singing from the loft when accompaniment was expected/required.
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  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    I get really tired of constant unaccompanied music.


    It is the tendency of musicians to long for "mo' MUSIC!!" That's not always a feature.
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    Not more music, just good music that is not repetitious. If most of what you do sounds alike you need some new material.
    Thanked by 1Carol
  • ...most of what you do...
    Ha!
    Or if most of what you do sounds like the same stuff that everyone else is doing.
  • I don't have a problem with lightly accompanied chant if it is done well. I rarely (if ever?) have found that doubling the melody on the organ amounts to 'doing it well', but maybe I haven't met the right organist. (Those who have accompanied me do not double the melody, and I've found their accompaniment to be exemplary and not to have led us in a bad musical direction.)

    @Chris Garton-Zavesky

    4) The word "Alleluia" can be treated in many different ways: in the Communion antiphon, for example, the first alleluia after "fidelis" begins on an ictic note in a group of three; the second alleluia begins on a non-ictic last-of-three (a weak up-beat).


    So true! I find, as a singer, that one of the greatest joys of the Easter season is encountering so many different forms of 'alleluia' in the propers.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    Ha!
    Or if most of what you do sounds like the same stuff that everyone else is doing.


    If it sounds like what everyone else is doing, then you must have stumbled into an AGO program by mistake. Especially if they are playing the same ten Bach pieces over and over.

    I tend to think that you have two sides of a counterfeit coin if all you do either sounds alike or sounds like the same stuff everyone else is doing. Neither is ideal.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    It is the tendency of musicians to long for "mo' MUSIC!!" That's not always a feature.


    Many musicians do seek novelty, that's for certain. But the current craze here for unaccompanied chant is sort of an aberration, too. After all, we have only had accompanied chant for a thousand years or so. Then there is the mainstream approach which junks both chant and organs. Dare I say that what one encounters here is neither mainstream nor any kind of norm?
  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    After all, we have only had accompanied chant for a thousand years or so.
    Is there any real evidence for this claim? As far as I can tell, organ accompaniment as we think of it is a 19th-century innovation. In former times yes, the chant was "accompanied" by organ, but it was alternatim practice, not the organ actually playing while the chant was being sung. The serpent was used for some time in the latter sense, which was much more practical when the choir and organ were at opposite ends of the church, but what records do we have of the organ actually being played to support the singing of chant before the 1800s?
  • Charles,

    Perhaps chucking our organs, wreckovating our parish worship spaces, and abandoning our musical heritage have all contributed to our inability to accompany chant well.... and thus the development (by way of compensation) of the preference for unaccompanied chant?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    I would agree that what we know of chant and how we do it comes from 19th-Century France. It appears to me that many earlier people did things both as they pleased and quite differently than what we think of as the "norms" of chant. There really are no norms and the chant rigidity practiced today has little precedent in history.

    Right about the serpents. I wish I had some on certain Sundays - like at least 50 out of 52 Sundays per year.
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  • m_r_taylor
    Posts: 314
    The sample size of churches actually attempting chant right now is comparatively low; if it were much larger, perhaps we would see far more natural variation in practice. Just a speculation.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW Viola
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    After all, we have only had accompanied chant for a thousand years or so.


    Not where I grew up, Charles--at least for the adults. However, the chilluns' Mass did have accompaniment, but that was because the music teacher's voice was SO AWFUL that she dared not lead the singing without leaning on the organ for pitch. In every other regard, the woman was a saint, by the way, and prolly earned the beatific vision in very short time after assuming room temperature.

    What I hear in quite a few parishes is the organist/keyboard critter rattling on and on and on and on and on........no matter the season, the moment of the Mass....and then it gets worse, as a certain Order of priests commands that the organ play during any 'dead spot.'

    In contrast, what I learned at far too old an age, is that unaccompanied Chant, propers and ordinary, with only a soupcon of organ improv at a few moments during the Mass can easily be all that one ever really needs.

    Yes, my choirs also sang ordinaries from XV-XX century, and motets from same period, and organ works were similarly disparate.

    But until you've tried Just Chant, don't knock it.
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  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    a certain Order of priests commands that the organ play during any 'dead spot.'
    OFMs, by chance?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    I would never be allowed to do chant exclusively. Ditto for Latin. This is NO not EF. I rather quietly work in some Latin and chant. Dad you are in a different place with different people. What you do can not be exported everywhere else. I am really fortunate to be able to do some chant since many folks don't like it. I do it the same way I play some contemporary music which, btw, the congregation hates. I play something contemporary and then follow with something more traditional. It doesn't seem to get noticed when paired.
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  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    MadO: no, not OFM. Think French....
  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    Ah yes, allergic to silence!
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  • ViolaViola
    Posts: 390
    The best chant accompaniment I have ever heard was on a pilgrimage to Pluscarden Abbey in the north of Scotland. One of the monks provided a light, sparse accompaniment (no pedal) to the Ordinary chants sung by the community and congregation. Just enough to keep everyone together. He left the Propers, sung by the community, strictly alone.
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  • mmeladirectress
    Posts: 1,075
    >> The human voice may be God's greatest instrument, but it isn't always the most pleasant, interesting, or highly developed.

    Maybe that's why it's the greatest. :-)
    A weed is a flower out of place, after all
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  • mmeladirectress
    Posts: 1,075
    >> the chilluns' Mass did have accompaniment, but that was because the music teacher's voice was SO AWFUL that she dared not lead the singing without leaning on the organ for pitch. In every other regard, the woman was a saint, by the way

    and in this regard too, I dare say. The music director who has that much humility is pretty rare, in my experience.
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  • mmeladirectress
    Posts: 1,075
    Sorry to be so talky... but Dad29 is IMO spot on.
    The organ is the king of instruments, but there may be a point where the thinking devolves to "everything tastes better with ketchup". :-)
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Vilyanor
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    A weed is a flower out of place, after all


    They both can make you sneeze.

    "everything tastes better with ketchup". :


    If it's church food, the ketchup definitely helps.

    Greatest instrument.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtf2Q4yyuJ0
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    A weed is a flower out of place, after all


    .....to which I liberally apply Roundup. Cannot do the same to a voice.