His Holiness, Pope Francis, on Liturgy
  • From EWTN:

    The liturgy, Pope Francis said Thursday, cannot be reduced to a matter of taste, becoming the subject of ideological polarization, because it is a primary way Catholics encounter the Lord.
    There is a risk with the liturgy of falling into a “past that no longer exists or of escaping into a presumed future,” the pope told members of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments Feb. 14.


    “The starting point is instead to recognize the reality of the sacred liturgy, a living treasure that cannot be reduced to styles, recipes and trends, but should be welcomed with docility and promoted with love, as irreplaceable nourishment for the organic growth of the People of God,” he continued.

    Francis also emphasized that the liturgy is not a “do-it-yourself” zone and urged the Vatican officials, “as in other areas of ecclesial life,” to avoid “ideological polarizations” and an attitude of “perpetual dialectics” against those with differing ideas about the liturgy.


    He also recalled his statement in Evangelii gaudium “that reality is more important than the idea.”


    “When we look back to nostalgic past tendencies or wish to impose them again, there is the risk of placing the part before the whole, the 'I' before the People of God, the abstract before the concrete, ideology before communion and, fundamentally, the worldly before the spiritual,” Francis asserted.

    Meeting the congregation during their Feb. 12-15 plenary assembly, Pope Francis addressed the importance of the Church’s liturgy, of having good collaboration between the Vatican congregation and bishops’ conferences, and of developing a proper liturgical sense in Catholics.

    “The liturgy is in fact the main road through which Christian life passes through every phase of its growth,” Francis said. “You therefore have before you a great and beautiful task: to work so that the People of God rediscovers the beauty of meeting the Lord in the celebration of his mysteries.”

    The pope noted that the plenary falls 50 years since St. Paul VI reorganized Congregation for the Discipline of the Sacraments “in order to give shape to the renewal desired by the Second Vatican Council. It was a matter of publishing the liturgical books according to the criteria and decisions of the Council Fathers, with a view to fostering, in the People of God, 'active, conscious and pious' participation in the mysteries of Christ.”

    He asserted that “the praying tradition of the Church needed renewed expressions, without losing anything of its millennial wealth, even rediscovering the treasures of its origins,” and noted that it was also in 1969 that the General Roman Calendar was changed and the new Roman Missal was promulgated, calling them “the first steps of a journey, to be continued with wise constancy.”


    Francis added that “it it is not enough to change the liturgical books to improve the quality of the liturgy.”

    He argued that proper liturgical formation of both clergy and laity is fundamental, and quoted from Sacrosanctum Concilium, the Second Vatican Council's 1963 constitution on the sacred liturgy.


    Though necessary, just providing information about liturgical books is not an adequate liturgical education, he continued, even with a view toward preserving the dutiful fulfillment of the ritual disciplines.

    “In order for the liturgy to fulfill its formative and transforming function, it is necessary that pastors and the laity be brought to grasp its meaning and symbolic language, including art, song and music at the service of the celebrated mystery, even silence,” he stated.

    He pointed to mystagogy as a suitable way to enter into the mystery of the liturgy, “in the living encounter with the crucified and risen Lord”; he pointed to the Catechism of the Catholic Church as an example of a book that illustrates the liturgy in this manner.

    Referencing the title of the congregation’s plenary assembly, “the liturgical formation of the People of God,” he said the task awaiting them is “essentially that of spreading the splendor of the living mystery of the Lord, manifested in the liturgy, in the People of God.”

    “To speak of the liturgical formation of the People of God means first of all to become aware of the irreplaceable role that the liturgy plays in the Church and for the Church,” he stated.

    “And then concretely help the People of God to better internalize the prayer of the Church, to love it as an experience of meeting with the Lord and with the brothers and, in light of this, to rediscover its contents and observe its rites.”

  • “When we look back to nostalgic past tendencies or wish to impose them again, there is the risk of placing the part before the whole, the 'I' before the People of God, the abstract before the concrete, ideology before communion and, fundamentally, the worldly before the spiritual,” Francis asserted.


    Am I the only one confused and a bit worried by this statement?
  • Ugh! This Pope......
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,325
    the worldly before the spiritual


    No two ways about it, the man is daft.
    Thanked by 1regissør
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    'Even a broken clock tells the time correctly twice a day...' Now where was I, oh reading the contradictory statements above reminds me of similar missives of the last 50 or even 100 years.

    So 'we' (or at least the Holy Father) want...
    "[The Liturgy] should be welcomed with docility and promoted with love as irreplaceable nourishment for the organic growth of the People of God"

    “that reality is more important than the idea.”

    "develop(ing) a proper liturgical sense in Catholics"

    " [The] People of God (re)discovers the beauty of meeting the Lord in the celebration of his mysteries."

    "active, conscious and pious (participation)"

    “the praying tradition of the Church need(ed) renewed expressions, without losing anything of its millennial wealth, even rediscovering the treasures of its origins,”

    "become aware of the irreplaceable role that the liturgy plays in the Church"

    "internalize the prayer of the Church"

    "rediscover its contents and observe its rites"

    But we must not,
    "be reduced to a matter of taste"

    " (be) subject of ideological polarization"

    "cannot be reduced to styles, recipes and trends,"

    " not a “do-it-yourself” zone"

    "look back to nostalgic past tendencies or wish to impose them again"

    "the abstract before the concrete, ideology before communion and, fundamentally, the worldly before the spiritual"

    With the last two I wonder if he is talking about the rites made up in a Roman bar in the 1960's?

    So considering how we should lead by example how does the Liturgy as celebrated by the Holy Father, prelates, bishops etc. meet up to these ideals?

    Anyway do we expect a group of predatory ho... sorry, grievous public sinners and their 'friends', can provide the leadership needed to bring about this renewal of the Liturgy?
    Thanked by 2Vilyanor toddevoss
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    Am I the only one confused by those (including above) who cannot read this as a simple statement of the obvious? - “the praying tradition of the Church needed renewed expressions, without losing anything of its millennial wealth, even rediscovering the treasures of its origins,” And “In order for the liturgy to fulfill its formative and transforming function, it is necessary that pastors and the laity be brought to grasp its meaning and symbolic language, including art, song and music at the service of the celebrated mystery, even silence,”
    Thanked by 1Paul F. Ford
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    That does not mean I think the Consilium/Bugnini got everything right, ICEL certainly did not, (and in my view is still deficient though in a different way).
    Thanked by 1Paul F. Ford
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982

    Am I the only one confused and a bit worried by this statement?


    Worried, no. But I think I mentioned a while back that I had heard some of the Italian bishops were asking the pope to remove the blanket authorization for the Old Latin mass that Benedict XVI had granted. As I have also noted several times, popes come and go. Francis will go to his reward at some point and things may get worse before they get better.
    Thanked by 1Vilyanor
  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 388
    Great way to say a whole lot of nothing in many words. A true politician.
  • The Holy Father's address gives rise in me to many thoughts of which charity forbids me to speak.
    He does, indeed, need our prayers - as I'm sure he would be the first to admit.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    He seems to like saying two contradictory things in the same paragraph. That's not easy to do, either.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw Vilyanor
  • His Holiness, Pope Francis, on [anything]

    You’ll basically get the same response.
  • I find much to agree with in the quoted text of His Holiness. To wit,



    cannot be reduced to a matter of taste
    .

    Exactly, which is why the liturgy is received, not a banal, on-the-spot product. Those who prefer the EF do so not because it has a "flavor" they like, but for serious cause.

    becoming the subject of ideological polarization,


    Right again, which is why we need a universal language and not six Masses per parish, each with its own language grouping and musical style.

    it is a primary way Catholics encounter the Lord.


    There is much evidence that (once upon a time) parishes were vibrant, and saints' days and parts of the Office were prayed publicly, not sotto voce. Yes, the whole of the liturgy is how Catholics "encounter" the Lord. On the other hand, if Mass alone must be the primary way Catholics "encounter" the Lord, surely His Holiness has just announced that preaching must be forthrightly Catholic, so that those hearing may be sure they've heard the truth, and the ars celebrandi must be profoundly (i.e., not superficially) Catholic?

    falling into a “past that no longer exists


    Indeed! We're no longer in the 60's or 70's, and "youth Masses" are usually attended by those who long for a youth from those eras. We must avoid falling into a past that no longer exists, and, instead, step into eternity with the Mass of the Ages.

    or of escaping into a presumed future


    Indeed. We must abandon the notion that the texts need to be updated constantly, to presume to know what the future is. Furthermore, we shouldn't prematurely ordain women as clerics, or have girl altar boys because they will some day be priestesses.

    recognize the reality of the sacred liturgy


    Indeed. The reality is so obscured in rites which strive to be relevant merely in the temporal, and not in the eternal view. We must, as he says, recognize the reality of the sacred liturgy: we didn't create it, we don't need to /get to create it, and our duty is to immerse ourselves in what we have received from the "democracy of the dead".


    , a living treasure that cannot be reduced to styles, recipes and trends, but should be welcomed with docility and promoted with love, as irreplaceable nourishment for the organic growth of the People of God


    Absolutely. Organically, there is no need for clowns at Mass, or roller skates, or cheese-headed priests.

    is not a “do-it-yourself” zone and urged the Vatican officials, “as in other areas of ecclesial life,” to avoid “ideological polarizations” and an attitude of “perpetual dialectics” against those with differing ideas about the liturgy.


    Hegelian dialectic has no place in liturgy. The Church's teaching isn't "ideological" or "sectarian", but Catholic. People who wish to balkanize the Church are ideologizing Her, too.

    that reality is more important than the idea.”


    Indeed. Sin is real. Grace is real. Forgiveness is real. Sacramental ongoing adultery and fornication, whose practitioners are able to receive Holy Communion..... that's an "idea", but not reality.

    I'll stop here, since I find so little to disagree with.
  • davido
    Posts: 944
    Perhaps we could summarize this papal address in the words of the late, great Rodney King: “can’t we all just get along?”
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    "....just get along?"

    Not with you, Holiness....
  • While a few things that Pope Francis said cause one to wrinkle one's face (if not stamp one's feet), much of his content one could agree with without reservation - depending on who is reading: Chris Garton-Zavesky or Father Good Morning Folks. Such is the nature of such a subjective syntax. And such is the nature of so very very much that comes from Rome, particularly in reference to music and liturgy. (What was it that Paul said about the people needing 'a certain ["clear"] trumpet'? We wait eagerly for one, and we wait, but as Isaiah saith, 'how long, O Lord, how long?'.)
  • francis
    Posts: 10,828
    Such is the nature of such a subjective syntax. And such is the nature (AND TACTICS) of (MODERISM) so very very much that comes from Rome, particularly in reference to music and liturgy.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    We have all been told for years that we should pray for the pope. I try to do that, but my prayers are similar to, "Bless this pope. I don't understand him or what he is trying to accomplish. None of it makes any sense to me. He's your pope, and you are the one who must deal with him." I really don't know what else to do.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    I have not understood any Pope in my lifetime. Admittedly I did not understand much at all when Pius XI died, but I puzzled a lot over the oracular pronouncements of Pius XII. St. John XXIII is the only one who made any attempt at personal transparency
    Thanked by 1Paul F. Ford
  • Hugh
    Posts: 198


    1. I don't mean to be disrespectful, but after so many iterations, Pope Francis now irrevocably reminds me of Little Britain's Vicki Pollard ... "Yeah, but no, but yeah, but no, but yeah." I never thought I would be thinking of something so crass when listening to the Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church. This one desperately needs our prayers.

    2. My rule of thumb when it comes to liturgical advice from anyone, Popes down, is: how does it stack up against the liturgy that was explicitly created by God Himself (including of course, God the Son - who became incarnate as Jesus Christ): the liturgy of the Old Covenant, dictated to Moses by God in the Pentateuch?

    Firstly, when one reads these passages, is there anywhere that God says "You shall perform this sacrifice at such and such a time. But for appropriate pastoral or ecumenical reasons, you may choose not to perform it."? Nup. Zip.

    Then when the Jews in, say the first century B.C., were rigidly adhering to the liturgy as mandated by God to Moses about 1000 years or so before, were they being "nostalgic"? Were they putting "ideology" before "communion", or the "worldly" before the "spiritual"? Were they placing the "I" before the People of God, the "abstract" before the "concrete"?

    Who knows what Pope Francis would say here? If he said it was perfectly right for the Jews to adhere to the strict letter of the liturgical law after a thousand years, why would he be railing against "nostalgia" if some Catholics want to worship the way they did a mere 60 years ago?

    "Yeah, but no, but yeah", I suspect would be his (non) response to that question.

    And what of the deadly punishments meted out by God to Uzzah when he reached out to rebalance the Ark on the stumbling of the oxen, and to Aaron's sons Nadab and Abihu when they disobeyed God's liturgical instructions and used "strange fire"? Isn't God being a tad "rule-bound", "obsessed with the law" in these episodes? How is He here the God of "mercy"?

    And what of Mary, Joseph and the Divine Son, Jesus, who as Luke (inter alia) points out, devoutly obeyed the Law? Weren't they a tad obsessed as well?

    Conclusion: nothing in the whole history of the Old Testament, and the short history of the Church in the New Testament, grounds the principles of the VII liturgical revolution, of which Pope Francis, for all his studied ambiguity, is an obvious devotee. With all his mates. Everything in the liturgical sense of the O.T. and the N.T. is intimately, sensibly and organically connected to the Traditional Liturgy.

  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    11 What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices? says the LORD; I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts; I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs, or of goats. (Isa. 1:11 NRS)
    14 Your new moons and your appointed festivals my soul hates; they have become a burden to me, I am weary of bearing them. (Isa. 1:14 NRS)
    Thanked by 1Casavant Organist
  • Hugh
    Posts: 198
    True, a-f: the Lord loathes outward sacrifice and worship when it is not accompanied by a contrite heart. When the heart is contrite, "then wilt thou delight in right sacrifices, in burnt offerings and whole burnt offerings; then bulls will be offered on thy altar." (Ps 51;19)
  • The Church has endured pedophilia, murder, deceit, and a host of other ills.
    The least of the Church's problems are personal piety and backbeats.
    Whether or not piano, organ, or hurdy-gurdy are used do not matter.
    The liturgy is the work of the people.
    Unfortunately, or perhaps blessedly, the people are deeply flawed.
  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 388
    Leitourgas is the work for the people, not of, despite what some will tell you for political reasons.
    Thanked by 2dad29 irishtenor
  • mburrier,

    since you post on the CMAA forum, have you given any thought to attending the CMAA Colloquium later this year? A whole week of joy - workshops and comaraderie and liturgy; hundreds of Catholic choir directors from all over (and outside) the US. :-)
    You will find a link on this site which will give dates and information. https://musicasacra.com/events/colloquium-2019-main/
    Hope you enjoy it tremendously!
  • When you compare the Midnight Mass of Pope Francis this year and that of Pope Pius XII, you can see that, perhaps, our Holy Father needs to refrain from making comments on the Liturgy! He would do far better to zero in on the Crisis of Immorality within the ranks of his modernist clergy! The same Post Vatican II reforms, which this Holy Father loves so much and which has denuded the beauty of the Gregorian Liturgy, has also given us a Modernist hierarchy devoid of a moral compass! The Post Vatican II Novus Ordo Liturgy cannot be compared to the beauty of the ancient Tridentine Liturgy! But who am I to judge? Our Lady of Fatima, pray for us! St. Michael the Archangel Pray for us!
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    @mburrier

    The Church has endured pedophilia, murder, deceit, and a host of other ills.
    This tells us that the Church is the One, True, Church. No human organisation would last 5 mins with the Catholic Church's leadership. I realise some political parties are surviving with these ills, but for how long?
    The least of the Church's problems are personal piety and backbeats.
    A lack of personal piety (holiness) is the cause of the sins you quoted above.
    Whether or not piano, organ, or hurdy-gurdy are used do not matter.
    Lex orandi, lex credendi
    The liturgy is the work of the people.
    The Liturgy is the work of God, given to us through the hands of the Saints. We follow the instructions, Say the Black do the Red.
  • The Old works and everyone in the Catholic Church knows it! Why not go back to where we left off in the 1960's, when the Church was making thousands and thousands of converts, when movies from Hollywood depicted Nuns in full habits and Priests in Cassocks, that were looked upon with veneration and respect! Instead of continuing to head down this failed road of the Woodstock Post Conciliar Church which has failed every test: Vocations, Mass Attendance, Youth Participation, etc.etc.etc.! If it aint broke, don't fix it! The timelessness of Tradition always works, as the 2000 year-old History of the Catholic Church has proved! Throw out the last 56 Years of Church History, and things look pretty good, actually! The only real increase in Vocations in recent years are to the religious orders of the Church that have re-embraced the Tridentine Rite. If you were CEO of the Church, what would you do??? We need a Catholic Hierarchy that has the gift of the obvious!
  • I'm beginning to suspect that "mburrier" is not a real person, but rather an advocatus diaboli creation meant to succinctly state specious arguments. :) Even if this is the case, it may be worthwhile to consider the flaws:

    "The Church has endured pedophilia, murder, deceit, and a host of other ills." - TRUE, including a lack of personal piety.

    "The least of the Church's problems are personal piety and backbeats." All of the above "serious" problems you listed would be counterbalanced by true personal piety. As an institution with the mission of preaching the gospel and saving souls, the Church should of course be deeply concerned with personal piety.

    "Whether or not piano, organ, or hurdy-gurdy are used do not matter." The Church has, for 2000 years, concerned herself with practical questions regarding sacred music. For a thousand years the organ was not used, for example. I'm sorry to hear that all of that effort and thought was irrelevant, but luckily "mburrier" is here to set the record straight about what is truly important. One thing we know - it's not personal piety. :)

    "The liturgy is the work of the people." The Church nowhere says this (but we do know that "mburrier" knows better than the Church, so this may not be a convincing argument). Leitourgia did not mean "work of the people" in ancient Greece, where the term originated. It did not mean "work of the people" when the early Church adopted the term. It does not, nor has it ever, meant "work of the people." This is common knowledge. Yet some people still insist on stating a false definition because - agenda. And, they probably read it in a liturgy magazine in the 70s and thought it sounded cool.

    "Unfortunately, or perhaps blessedly, the people are deeply flawed." Well, OK I'll grant you that one. Whether they should remain flawed is a different question. But, dadgummit! We know that personal piety is the least of the Church's concerns!

    If you are a real person, "mburrier" I am truly curious why you make statements like these, here of all places. Do you think that stating things has an inherent value, or that when you state something it becomes convincing, logical, or true?
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    read it in a liturgy magazine in the 70s


    Jesuits were spreading that falsehood in the mid-'60's....
  • The Liturgy is the work of THE HOLY SPIRIT! Come on mburrier!
  • As a side-note, If anyone can point me to any actual scholarly or theological treatise advocating the "work of the people" theory, I'd love to see it. It's a pernicious idea that I have certainly heard a lot, but have never been able to trace to its source. Maybe because those who write scholarly papers/articles know that the definition would be hard to support.
  • Yeah! Vatican II, the cause of this Apocalyptic Crisis of Faith and the degradation of the Liturgy we see all around us!

    Return to sanity=return to Tradition: Tradidi quod et accepi (Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre)
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    Greek leitourgia ‘public service, worship of the gods’, from leitourgos ‘minister’, from lēitos ‘public’ + -ergos ‘working’.
    I think most here know that it is work for the people, not work by the people.
    I understand there is in an inscription on this building, the Library at Ephesus paid for by Celsus, which describes it as his leitourgia.
    image
    Thanked by 3Liam CharlesW CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    Yeah! Vatican II, the cause of this Apocalyptic Crisis of Faith and the degradation of the Liturgy we see all around us!


    Sad to say, not so. All the errors and craziness that came after Vatican II were flourishing underground years before the council. The liturgy had issues before the council and even many liturgical conservatives realized it needed some reforms. Granted, those needed reforms were minor, not the wholesale upheaval that occurred. Give a liturgist an inch and he will take a mile.

    One of the major difficulties was the time in which reforms happened. The entire culture of the U.S. and much of the western world was being challenged like never before, and was itself in upheaval. A naive and elderly pope quickly lost control of the council and those German and Dutch bishops were raring to turn the church upside down. Had the council been held in say, 1925, the results would have been far different.

    Despite all the talk about bringing the church into the modern age, it was just talk. The church still is not addressing the needs of the people, which is why so many have deserted and gone elsewhere, or just stayed at home.

  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,801
    As with the recently discussed 'chant', 'office', 'work', and 'opera' badly fail the dynamic equivalence test. 'Service' is at least recognizable, but 'public service' is something else, unless one knows that it is being carried out in a 'secular' institution like a cathedral.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW CHGiffen
  • Despite all the talk about bringing the church into the modern age, it was just talk. The church still is not addressing the needs of the people, which is why so many have deserted and gone elsewhere, or just stayed at home.


    While much of what you say is true, just like with my first comment, there needs to be a clarification! The True Church speaks infallibly to all peoples at all times under the guidance of the Holy Spirit! The problem is we always have a hard time differentiating from the human element of the Church which is always fallible, (beginning with the fall of the first Pope: "get behind me Satan" and even the Apostles when they all abandoned Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane) and the Divine element: A Church "without spot or wrinkle". This is the rabbit-hole I didn't want to go down, but here it goes!

    I do agree that "the errors and craziness that came after Vatican II were flourishing underground years before the council", and we can back up to the turn of the Twentieth Century and point to St. Pius X's condemnation of Modernism in his encyclicalPascendi which the holy pope admitted was not snuffed-out but would reemerge later. The "elderly Pope" John XXXIII you speak of was really not so naive, but was known for his liberal ideas. It had been discovered that Roncalli, in defiance of the Encyclical “Pascendi” by his co-regional Pope Sarto, Pius X, not only acted as a modernist, but corresponded with the excommunicated priest Ernesto Buonaiuti. He would even scornfully joke upon his ascending to the Papacy “…For, as you can see, even a priest placed under “observation” by the Holy Office can, on occasion, become Pope!”

    When raised to the Papacy, and with the convocation of Vatican II He wanted to open up the Windows and let the Fresh Air in, but he, instead, let in the plague! It is true that the roots of the Modernism experienced during the Council and all the reforms following in its wake were the result of the Liberal Ideas stemming way back to the so-called Enlightenment of the French Revolution. Archbishop Lefebvre would say that Vatican II was the French Revolution in the Church! Even The great Abbot of Solesmes during the Council, Dom Prou, saw that the Liturgical Revolution being prepared by Annibale Bugnini during the early Post-Conciliar liturgical Reform meetings, would be the end of the Great Liturgical Restoration done by the Holy Monks of Solesmes. This chaos we see everywhere in the New Liturgy is the direct result of all this!

    This is what we are witnessing in the Catholic Church today and this was the point I was attempting to make. There will always be weak Churchmen in the Church who will fall. That is the result of our fallen human nature. "Scandals you will have always with you" Our Lord told His Apostles. But the likes of a Cardinal McCarrick is the result of an evil Spirit, that can be traced to a far deeper and darker cause, and that we call the Spirit of Vatican II. Unfortunately, it seems that the slight progress made to return to Tradition under Pope Benedict XVI, has been undone by his successor! Let us continue to pray for him!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    I agree, and would additionally say that what John XXIII started, Paul VI was able to muck up even worse. How the "H" these persons can be considered saints is beyond me. Their incompetence reached legendary status.

    As a Byzantine looking in, and working as a DM/Organist in a Latin Rite parish, I am naturally puzzled by some developments post council. I see extremes in positions from let's update the church and make it relevant, to let's go back to 1959 and pretend nothing has happened since. Either position leads to nowhere.

    There is a rot in the church that goes both wide and deep. Warmth and fuzziness have done little to cure it. Ecumania has further weakened doctrine. By the same token, all the fancy vestments, prancing priests doing stylized ritual actions, clouds of incense, Latin of questionable scholarship, and mantilla clad ladies will not accomplish the conversion of hearts so badly needed. That is the key, conversion of hearts. Reading the writings of the genuine saints will quickly convince you that human inclinations haven't changed over the centuries. While no one more staunchly supports good liturgy and music than I, it is true that is an uphill battle. Again conversion of hearts is the key. Obsessing on either Renaissance forms or futuristic pipe dreams will not accomplish that conversion. Both approaches seem to me to be delusional.

    I did and do regard Benedict XVI highly, but his efforts were too little, too late. Had he been a younger man in good health and with a longer reign, he might - might - have been able to slow the rush over the cliff. Alas, that didn't happen. One man against the lemmings sowing the seeds of their own destruction can be nearly impossible to direct or stop. However, we have gone from bad to worse in terms of leadership, I am afraid.

    Just received my Kindle copy of "In the Closet of the Vatican," this morning. Today is the publication date. I am afraid I will be even more alarmed about the state of the church after reading it.


  • As a Byzantine looking in, if that person's opinion of the Catholics who follow the traditions of the Church in the face of today's crisis is only "fancy vestments, prancing priests doing stylized ritual actions, clouds of incense, Latin of questionable scholarship, and mantilla clad ladies", then a closer look needs to be taken. At the rising numbers of vocations, the large, sound families, the incalculable sacrifices parents (and others!) make to ensure that the children are given a solid Catholic foundation, not just kumbaya... there is so much good to see.
  • Just received my Kindle copy of "In the Closet of the Vatican," this morning. Today is the publication date. I am afraid I will be even more alarmed about the state of the church after reading it.

    You should not be too surprised at what we see going on (Crazy Liturgy included!) Because the Church is made up of poor sinners! And don't forget! If you had to be the Saint you would like to see exemplified in every Pope, Bishop, Priest and Lay Person, you and I would not be allowed in that Church! We are all sinners, and that is the reason Our Lord established confession!

    But the point I believe you are getting at (and you are right!) is that when we sin and we no longer call it sin, we are doomed! The Post Vatican Church, has seen anomalies in pre-Vatican II day Faithful participation in the Liturgy. The Liturgy was beautiful, (I believe we all admit this!) So, just as in the Protestant Reformation (i.e.Revolution), instead of reforming the way people lived they reformed the Doctrine and created many splinter Christian churches! But in this case, Vat II instead of reforming how the Faithful actively participated, (which was the intention of St. Pius X when he desired the Faithful to chant the Ordinary parts of the Mass) they reformed the way they worshipped and overhauled the entire Liturgy, which was already stunningly beautiful! i.e. If it ain't broke don't fix it!

    The Novus Ordo Liturgy is effeminate! No wonder we have a problem with effeminacy among the Clergy! A wimpy Liturgy produces wimpy Priests! This New Liturgical mish-mosh, mixes all the more-or-less mediocre elements of a Jewish Prayer service, an Anglican and Lutheran Communion service and (this is the worse for our dear Eastern Uniate Catholics) a Byzantine Mass! Oh yeah! And throw in a little Pop Music written poorly by nerds! Music that doesn't attract the youth, but makes them run away in the opposite direction even faster! As Bishop Sheen most perfectly put it: The youth can get it in the World, and they can get it better!!

    In the mix they left out a small little thing called: SACRIFICE! So now we have this awful abortion of a liturgy, to compliment the widespread abortion being promoted by this same effeminate Clergy that never speaks of Sin, or Contraception or the necessity of regular Confession, but only of Global Warming and of the necessity of free and open borders. And they don't want these open borders in order to offer our poor neighbors the Corporal Works of Mercy! No! They would like to offer them Free access to Planned Parenthood and make them all good American Apostates! The one great thing they have going for them, their strong Catholic Culture, they could care less if they keep it or not!

    Yes! You are right! This problem did not happen overnight, my dear friend and co-weeper, but we must see that in the beautiful Latin Maxim: Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, the argument is somewhat circular! So an unholy Hierarchy and Clergy produces an unholy Liturgy, (we see this with the Masonic infiltration into the hierarchy, and the heterodox Periti at the Council). But also, (and this is the most important!) a Holy Liturgy will eventually promote a Holy Hierarchy and renewed Priesthood! Just look at these beautiful large Homeschooling Families you see at these Latin Masses! Oh yes! And with all the ladies and Little girls wearing their Mantillas! This is not bad or Pharisaical, my dear friend! Form follows function! It is an organic outgrowth from that beautiful Tridentine Culture that produced such saints as Saint Thérèse of Lisieux and Saint Francis DeSales!

    I do agree with you that we will get our Church back when men and women become more holy, but we must start somewhere! The Movement back to Tradition is not a regress but a powerful continuation to move Forward! We are just picking up where we left off in the 60's. You will see! Just as in all this growth we are witnessing in the Traditional Orders has resulted with the Tridentine Mass being re-introduced, with time and effort, no doubt, the Catholic Culture we lost with the Post-Vatican II "renewal" will also return when we return to the "tried and true". Our Lady of Fatima promises it! So Pray the Rosary and don't fret! We're gonna win!
    Thanked by 1petrus_simplex
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    Our Lady of Fatima also promised what will be in essence, the end of the world. That part gets forgotten. Francis has been threatening me with that for years. Not really, but he has pointed out the darker side of Fatima.

    The larger problem with the Novus Ordo is too many options in the hands of people who are not adequately prepared for that kind of responsibility. I am rather lucky in the parish I serve. Eucharistic prayer one, chant, good music, sound doctrine in sermons, and the like make us a bit rare among local parishes. We use good hymns and don't use all Propers all the time, but I suspect no one's eternal salvation rests on the presence or absence of Propers.

    I have been to TLMs where the priest was humble, genuine in his presentation, and working hard at genuine worship. It is a job to do it right with the right intentions. I have also been to some that were nothing but theater with a sour and hard to please audience. It goes both ways in both forms of mass. And no, I don't subscribe to the "Mass of the Ages" mentality about the TLM. It is nearly as old as Trent, but not much more so. Following the collapse of Roman culture and barbarian invasions in the west, I suppose it is nearly miraculous anything survived from Roman days. True, the TLM is more beautiful than most NO masses, but it isn't 4th and 5th century western rite worship. That doesn't mean it is bad in any way, just that some of its devotees wax a bit too poetic and loosely about it.

    You are quite correct about personal holiness. My point in earlier posts being that adherence to externals and forms does not equate to true worship. What was it God said about sacrifices and offerings being offensive to Him because the hearts of the people were not right? Still true today.

    I will continue to pray the chotki since it is more akin to eastern practice. I have said the rosary on occasion such as recent pro-life prayers, but it is not a continuing devotion for most easterners. I suspect God appreciates genuine prayer which can be in many forms.
  • The Church is running its providential course. It is not for you or I to worry if we are in Chapter XIII of the Apocalypse or not. We know that we are at least past Chapter XII: A Woman clothed with the Sun! Sister Lucy said so!

    And please don't go into the sincerity of those who attend Mass, that is not our duty and how can we really now! But concentrating on the Manner of worship, really is everyone's duty, but especially the Hierarchy!

    Our Lady at Fatima said to pray the Rosary, (not the chotki!) But you can certainly pray both!

    Pray, Hope and don't worry! (Padre Pio)
    Thanked by 1mmeladirectress
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    Fatima is an apparition no one is required to accept, and you know that. LOL. Private revelations are not binding on anyone.
    Thanked by 1ebullock
  • Forewarned is forearmed.

    Going back to the OP (what a concept!) didn't this Pope say he was going to retire after 5 years? From what he told the Congregation for Divine Worship & the Discipline of the Sacraments (possibly an oxymoron, any more) on Feb. 14, doesn't sound much like it. YES we need to pray for him.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    I had not heard about the retirement so that is interesting. Either he didn't say it, or didn't mean it. With him, it's hard to tell.

    Do you think we could get him a nice going away present to encourage him?
  • God is in Charge! No worries! He's just asleep in the Boat!
    +
    Pax
    U.I.O.G.D.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    IIRC what the Pope said was that he was hoping to get the neccessary reforms in place within 5 years, because he could not realistically expect a longer term. Certainly there was no promise of retirement, and, I think, no suggestion that the fruits of the reform would be achieved. The reforms were about governance, the Council of Cardinals, and less centralisation.
    And better financial transparency.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • francis
    Posts: 10,828
    Francis has been threatening me with that for years. Not really, but he has pointed out the darker side of Fatima.
    ?
  • What reforms? Hasn't he done enough?
    Sancte Michael, Ora pro nobis!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    Francis, you know I was kidding about that, I hope. LOL. You have provided information on the consequences side of the Fatima apparitions that I hadn't encountered elsewhere.