EF practices

CharlesW

I agree. The local group has a young priest who is working hard to socialize them. Also, some of the more obnoxious have been asked to leave and not come back. One family was so divisive they were told the police would be called if they came back. I have worked with some of their musicians and we have mutually helped each other out when needed. I think it is looking up, just not totally there yet. Progress takes time.

a_f_hawkins

zombies participating silently in the pews

There was worse than that, there were Masses where another priest would lead recitation of the rosary throughout the Mass, from the pulpit (though with a pause from Hanc igitur until the elevation of the chalice). I did not experience that, but I did occasionally stand in the big crowd outside the church door throughout Mass, unable to see or hear anything of the liturgy at all. It was held that you had fulfilled the obligation if you could see someone who could see the altar through the open doors.

CharlesW

a_f_hawkins, seen similar so I believe you. I have seen the rosary going on during mass and another priest on a side altar getting his required mass in. Confession was in progress, too.

madorganist

Heaven forbid people use the Mass as a time to pray or repent of their sins before God!

dad29

Yah, all those priests cluttering up the joint with their side-altar Masses! Disgusting.

a_f_hawkins

Popes for the last century have been promoting the message of the Council of Trent (Session 22 ch8), that congregations should engage with the Mass.

madorganist

Popes for the last century have been promoting the message of the Council of Trent (Session 22 ch8), that congregations should engage with the Mass.

To wit:

CHAPTER VIII.--On not celebrating the Mass every where in the vulgar tongue; the mysteries of the Mass to be explained to the people.

Although the mass contains great instruction for the faithful people, nevertheless, it has not seemed expedient to the Fathers, that it should be every where celebrated in the vulgar tongue. Wherefore, the ancient usage of each church, and the rite approved of by the holy Roman Church, the mother and mistress of all churches, being in each place retained; and, that the sheep of Christ may not suffer hunger, nor the little ones ask for bread, and there be none to break it unto them, the holy Synod charges pastors, and all who have the cure of souls, that they frequently, during the celebration of mass, expound either by themselves, or others, some portion of those things which are read at mass, and that, amongst the rest, they explain some mystery of this most holy sacrifice, especially on the Lord's days and festivals. [. . .]

CANON IX.--If any one saith, that the rite of the Roman Church, according to which a part of the canon and the words of consecration are pronounced in a low tone, is to be condemned; or, that the mass ought to be celebrated in the vulgar tongue only; or, that water ought not to be mixed with the wine that is to be offered in the chalice, for that it is contrary to the institution of Christ; let him be anathema.

CharlesW

That silent canon was condemned by, and as early as, the Emperor Justinian. And there is nothing wrong with prayer. But participation was sought by Pius X and other popes. I don't know whether it was rampant clericalism, or congregational indifference that kept it from working out. The Dialogue Mass didn't seem to go far, either. Now there is more participation, but the get-it-over-with-and-let-me-out-the-door-in-one-hour mentality is widespread. I tend to be bothered by long sermons but the shortest possible Eucharistic Prayer since it seems right order is disrupted and the cart is definitely before the horse.

CatherineS

In defense of praying the rosary during Mass, a couple personal experiences/thoughts:

in charity it is not as appropriate in a very small congregation where the church is only open for Mass and that's it, where ones lack of visible participation might distract others or draw comment; one shouldn't try to stand out or draw attention; but praying a rosary during Mass is not at all disruptive to others in churches where there are various activities taking place already (such as often found in larger cities or in Catholic countries where it seems common to leave the doors open and for people to stop in for private devotions throughout the day, regardless of whether or not there is a Mass in progress).

-it is an extremely effective way to survive emotional or spiritual turmoil which may make participation in the Mass difficult. For instance if one arrives at Mass very upset or distraught, or becomes upset during Mass because of something that happens, or even is just unable to pay attention, quietly praying the rosary can be really helpful in regaining composure, peace of heart and attentiveness, or offering prayer for the upsetting situation. One can always pause them and 'rejoin' the Mass in progress and finish the rosary later. One can pray the rosary in the NO Mass quite discreetly - even keeping up with the standing/kneeling/shaking hands etc., but just keeping ones eyes down and silently mouthing the rosary prayers as one goes along, with the rosary looped in one hand. No need to make everyone notice.

Thoughts?

CharlesW

I think one should at least listen to the scripture readings. The rosary during the Canon seems not the correct thing to do. Granted, praying through hymns and music selections would be hard to condemn, although the noise might be too much for any concentration on prayer. I have seen folks pray through communion which seems harmless and there is generally time for it. Years ago, not as many people communed so communion time was shorter than today.

stulte

The local group has a young priest who is working hard to socialize them.

Perhaps you should join them?

At any rate, I find the "issues" brought up by the OPs in threads like this one and similar ones fairly odd. A celebrant sits down while after reciting the Gloria while the schola or choir sings the same text? So? A priest sings the Salve Regina with the congregation after Low Mass? So? Etc. So? Does any of this have all that much importance?

CharlesW

Perhaps you should join them?

Don't have time. Busy all morning with NO masses and tired afterwards. Last thing I need is to attend another mass. I do chat with their musicians.

tomjaw

Meditating on the Life, Death and Resurrection of Our Lord Jesus Christ during the Mass, as we follow the prayers and readings. Is this a problem? Now, do remind me what we meditate on as we pray the Rosary.

CharlesW

I think it would be more important to listen and try to understand the scripture readings than do your own thing. Agreed, if you can meditate without blocking out the readings and mass parts. There are major differences between liturgies and devotions. They are not the same level of importance.

tomjaw

listen and try to understand the scripture readings

Well they are always read / sung in Latin, O.K. I listen to the first few words and can usually work out which one it is, I have typed up and proofread translations of most of the EF Readings, so this is not too difficult. I can not remember any of the readings for when I attended the OF (over 20 years ago) even though I was one of the readers, I do remember that the English translation was awful, and much was rendered meaningless.

If I wanted to try to understand the readings I would sit down with St. Bede's commentaries on one side and Aquinas on the other, and after a lifetime of study conclude that I still don't fully understand them.

CharlesSA

A word on "trying to understand the readings..."

I suppose that in theory, or simply taken in itself, there is nothing wrong with that. However, although this is not always the case, the Epistles especially are not "understandable" if just reading through the text; they require slow study for deep understanding. Admittedly, normally the Gospel readings are easier to understand, although as with most scripture, slow reading and meditation seem more likely to touch one most deeply rather than a one-time, quicker reading at Mass. Thus, we can perhaps come to the understanding that the primary end of everything that is done/that we do at Mass is God, not us or our understanding. Even the readings, which whether they are in English or not, in reality the majority of PIP are not going to really "understand" anyway. If the priest sees it fit, he will explain any points in the epistle and/or Gospel that might have been difficult.

I used be strongly against praying the rosary at Mass. However, the longer and longer I attend the traditional Mass and the less and less I attend Novus Ordos (Novus Ordo very rarely the past 2 1/2 years, only one in the last 6 months), the less and less I am worried about whether everyone is "participating" in the exact same way or not. I still hold that there are more desirable ways in themselves to participate, but each and every person brings such a different disposition from various circumstances - and these obviously vary day to day - that the exact same way of participating may not be suited to these exact circumstances/dispositions. For that, I am learning to be very grateful for the traditional Mass's more ready flexibility on this point.

a_f_hawkins

The private devotions of an individual, even during Mass, are a matter between them and God. The public recitation of the Rosary, or any other prayer, during Mass is surely a matter for the rubrics.

CharlesW

I have spent a lifetime studying scripture, and there is still more to learn than I ever will. Would that cause me to downgrade the importance of scripture in favor of any devotion, no matter how good or popular? No. The answer is to study harder.

rich_enough

each and every person brings such a different disposition from various circumstances - and these obviously vary day to day - that the exact same way of participating may not be suited to these exact circumstances/dispositions. For that, I am learning to be very grateful for the traditional Mass's more ready flexibility on this point.

Yes - for some reason, the reformers were obsessed with everyone participating in only one way, as if every single one of the faithful approached the mass in the precisely the same fashion and would participate in lockstep. An illiterate older man, a teenage boy, a mother with a bunch of kids, a bachelor professor of Greek and Latin - everyone throughout their lives - all had to "understand" every word being spoken and "follow" everything going on at the altar at all times.

Kinda strange when you think about it.

Carol

One can only be present at Mass when a Mass is being offered. One can pray the Rosary whenever one wants, so it seems to me that being present at Mass means one should be attentive to the Mass in whatever way is best for that person, as long as it isn't a distraction to others. To really pray the Rosary, meditating on the Mysteries, seems like its own devotion and not really possible while being fully present at Mass. But that could just be me.

mmeladirectress

>> Getting back to the original question,

what a concept ;-)

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