• The I.L.P. "Credo Hymnal" is wonderful! I included it in a list of possible choices when my pastor recently asked for suggestions for a new hymnal.

    Gaudete in Domino Semper!
  • The accompaniment for the Credo was really expensive compared to other hymnals IIRC
  • Yes, the CREDO accompaniment is expensive, but worth it qualitatively (just my opinion).

    Gaudete in Domino Semper!
  • At my parish we use Worship III and Hymnal 1940. We do have OCP's "Today's Missal" (without the music issue) for the readings and current order of Mass, but very rarely will we use a hymn from it.
    My personal recommendation is the St. Michael Hymnal. I'm still waiting to see the Brebeuf hymnal. Worship IV, to me, is a disappointment.
    Thanked by 2RMSawicki ncicero
  • @Brian Michael Page After perusing W IV, I'm a little disappointed as well...
  • I was present at the 2018 Sacred Music Symposium in Los Angeles. Several hymns from the forthcoming Brébeuf Hymnal were sung, conducted by Dr. Horst Buchholz and Kevin Allen, and all of us (80+ musicians) were totally blown away. Simple, but very very moving, and I didn't know many of them until the Symposium chose them. In particular, the ones chosen for Vespers were out of this world.

    You can listen to one here:


    ...scroll down and click on the third YouTube video. We launch into harmony at 0:24 marker. For some reason I can't figure out how to embed the YouTube here.
    Thanked by 1Incardination
  • a1437053a1437053
    Posts: 198
    Update for 2019 on decision?
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,785
    @Dixit_Dominus_44 ... the hymn at Vespers in question is (the very traditional) Iste Confessor. In the video before this one, Kevin Allen's Agnus Dei is splendid.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,779
    The hymn tune is known as ROUEN in the 1940 Hymnal, #228.
  • ncicero
    Posts: 38
    Update for 2019 on decision?

    Unfortunately, none yet! I've put it to the back of my priority list for a couple reasons:

    1. I don't think I really know what the pastor is looking for in a hymnal. (I don't think HE really knows what he's looking for in a hymnal) :)

    2. I was waiting until the Brebeuf Hymnal was released so I could fully investigate that route. It is now sitting on my desk awaiting a thorough read.

    There are a couple options on the table right now, but I've completely ruled Worship IV out. When well over half of your new hymn texts are by Delores Dufner of "Sing a New Church" fame, I couldn't justify that.

    Thanked by 1rich_enough
  • I am grateful for this discussion. Our parish is also going through the available selections at the moment. We have not yet seen "Lumen Christi" or "Credo". Right now, the front runners are "St. Michael" and "Ignatius Pew Missal".

    We received our copy of "Brebeuf" yesterday. A beautiful, scholarly offering, but unlikely to be our choice for in the pew. That said, I still may get a set for the choir.

    All-in-all, the available hymnals seem to be a marked improvement over the "Breaking Bread" that we have been using for the last decade.
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,226
    I'm sure I've said it before, but I think St. Michael is the best available hymnal for regular parish use. I've used it with great success!
    Thanked by 2CharlesW rich_enough
  • davido
    Posts: 556
    We just got the Ignatius Pew Missal to replace Breaking Bread. Honestly, I’m not 100% happy with it.
    The hymn selection is hardly deeper than the acceptable rep from Breaking Bread, and because it is a different bunch of hymns, a lot of them are unusable until they are “taught to the congregation.”
    (No having to wade through tons of contemporary crap, that’s a plus.)
    The Alleluias for ordinary time are just too simple to be usable, especially when the congregation is accustomed to 30 years of Alstott. I’ve compromised with the mode vi Gregorian melody, but the accompaniment in Ignatius Pew Missal is so bizarre that I am having to print new scores even for that.
    The psalms refrains strike me as awkward. So simple as to be like, why bother? The tones for the verses are imitations of the superior Meinrad psalm tones.

    I still think the Lumen Christi series is the way to go.
  • pfreese
    Posts: 147
    The real Achilles heal of the Ignatius Pew Missal(ette) is that it is still, well, a missalette. Probably the best missalette out there, but a missalette nonetheless. You still have to shell out God-knows-how-much parish money each year for something that’ll be completely useless come December, it’s a waste of paper, and still has the cheap, disposable look/feel that we love to hate about Breaking Bread et al. IMHO, LCM plus a solid hymnal like LCH or SMH (or heck, even Worship IV) is much preferable to (and a far better use of parish money in the long run) than something that is really just a half step improvement over Breaking Bread. Now if Ignatius wises up and comes back with a decent hardcover missal and hymnal, then we’d be talking.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen mattebery
  • Pfreese,

    I haven't spoken to the folks at Ignatius press, but I would be unsurprised if the reason their Pew Missal is so much like the execrable stuff you mention is "we have to take baby steps for the people".
  • davido
    Posts: 556
    There are a lot of parishes that just can’t or won’t budget for a bound Hymnal, let alone the 2 books that LCM and LCH entail
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,226
    That's really penny wise, but pound foolish. Parishes save LOADS of money by moving away from subscriptions and to permanent, hard-bound hymnals. It's a one-time expense, rather than a yearly, recurring cost.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Earl_Grey
  • David, Irish,

    Ask what they will budget for.
  • Our figuring shows that SMH + a disposable misalette will save over $1500 per year if the SMH will last a mere five years over the annual purchase of Breaking Bread. The supposition is that it will last a lot longer and that the savings will compound.

    SMH would be a sizable initial investment, however, which is why the purchase of Ignatius Pew Missal also looks attractive. That would have immediate savings for us.
  • davido
    Posts: 556
    We saved money with IPM over breaking bad er bread, but not sure exactly how much. Ignatius had some shipping issues but good customer service.
    There’s some errata in accompaniments, but it’s not too bad
    Thanked by 1Carol
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    I ran the numbers at a parish with a very supportive pastor who would have the best of the best with everything, if he had the funds ... it would take 7 years for a hymnal to pay for itself after moving away from IPM subscription, not accounting for the extra cost of a permanent missal if desired. Without a major donation to make it happen, that sort of investment sits low on the priority list, esp. when the boiler is on the fritz.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • davido
    Posts: 556
    Exactly. The parish I worked at previously that got LCM benefited from a donor who subsidized the entire cost.
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 864
    A one-time sacrificial gift of $20 per family (that actually attends Mass regularly) would be enough to purchase one hardbound hymnal (or Missal) for the pews. The subscription savings from just one year would be enough for the choir and organ books.

    The reason a pastor can't (won't) switch from the Missalette to a good quality hymnal is because he (or a good number of the congregation) doesn't deem it important enough.
  • ...doesn't deem it important enough.
    ...Or likes to waste money.
    Missalettes are very poor (as in deliriously irresponsible) stewardship -
    not only of dollars, but of paper and trees.
    Thanked by 2mattebery hilluminar
  • pfreese
    Posts: 147
    As much as I have publicly stated my love of hardbound hymnals (and disdain for missalettes), the matter of short-term cost is not a small concern. Many parishes that have missalette subscriptions don’t have cash reserves or fundraising savvy to front a sound but costly investment like a hymnal program, despite its long-term savings and benefits to a parish music program. GIA, for example, tries to counter this by offering generous financing and installment options (they of course have the business experience and size to offer this in the first place). I’m not familiar with what financing options Illuminare or the publishers of SMH offer (if any), but this would be a game changer for the publishers of traditional-minded hymnals and their potential customers alike. It’s much easier for a pastor and finance committee to get on board when the cost of a hymnal program is just five or so years of payments comparable to that of a BB subscription (less if the parish does an even modest capital campaign), and then nothing until they want to replace them. As others have said earlier, it’s too easy for these otherwise meritorious investments to fall by the wayside when church boilers and the like need to get fixed.
    Thanked by 2petrus_simplex Carol
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,009
    Your priest invests in a hard copy hymnal. He gets replaced 2 or 3 years down the road. The next priest doesn't like that hymnal and wants a different hymnal. If the parish had a subscription service, the new priest only has to cancel one subscription and start another.
    Thanked by 1Carol
  • BHCordova,

    Does the content of the hymnal figure into whether the money is well spent or not?
  • Does the content...
    Yea, verily, it does!
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • davido
    Posts: 556
    I know of a parish in my diocese where the priest bought the VII Hymnal, got transferred within a couple of years. His successor boxed the hymnals up and put some schlock publication back in the pews.

    It is exceedingly difficult to effect change without pastoral longevity.
  • Carol
    Posts: 707
    I have seen this happen in my parish, too. It is especially difficult when a parishioner has donated a large sum of money for the hymnals and a new pastor comes along and boxes them up! The parishioner is justifiably upset, IMHO.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • pfreese
    Posts: 147
    I can’t say I’ve seen much of this aforementioned situation in my neck of the woods; hard bound hymnals dominate up here (GIA in particular). But this does raise a question about the realism of many of these excellent but nonetheless niche traditional hymnal projects.

    SMH has received some shade on these threads for including token ‘contemporary’ songs like “On Eagles’ Wings” and “Behold the Lamb,” but now that I think about, this might’ve been a smart attempt to make it more palatable to the baby boomer types who would otherwise chuck a VIIH at first sight. Worship IV is an even safer choice, but you hit a point of diminishing returns pretty quickly. That a not-so-distant future pastor might scrap such a hymnal program is always a risk, so a wise discussion on a new hymnal project should consider the present situation in the parish and broader local Church, not what they wish it were.
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,009

    Does the content of the hymnal figure into whether the money is well spent or not?

    What priest ever considers whether money is well spent? Every time we get a new pastor, things change to suit his tastes. No consideration for the cost of what is being replaced and whether the new stuff is better than what is being replaced.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • No consideration for the cost of what is being replaced and whether the new stuff is better than what is being replaced.

    Excuse me, but this is utter nonsense.
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,226
    It certainly is utter nonsense, but it happens all the time. Pastors are completely unaccountable, and the bishop will only intervene if the pastor is moving the parish in a traditional direction.

    If a leftist is named pastor at St John Cantius, the faithful will be expected to obey him and their complaints will fall on deaf ears. If a conservative (by some strange turn of events) is named pastor at St Sabina, he will be expected to move very gradually and meet the congregation where they are. Any complaints from the CINOs will be taken with the utmost seriousness, and the faithful pastor brought to heel.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW hilluminar
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    I once went to lunch at the pastor’s favorite local Mexican restaurant. He was busy and unable to join us, but a text was sent asking if he’d like me to bring anything back to the office. When he requested “two tacos al pastor” I thought it was a tongue-in-cheek response (this was a wise and deliberate conservative pastor, with a quick wit and a strong distaste for abuse of power).

    Turns out that it was just a gap in my Spanish vocabulary.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • JesJes
    Posts: 570
    The archdiocese of Melbourne recently published their new CWBII Catholic Worship Book II.

    It has mixed reviews.

    I have personal friends who were involved in the editing and restructuring and even composition within this hymnal and I must say there are features I both like and dislike about this new hymnal.
    (Hint, if you want my full unabridged honest review you'll have to private message me.) There are definitely features I really like and features that make me go "but why oh why?"

    I am rather partial to the old hymnal which was by no means all that traditional for a Hymnal and indeed carried some faults too but it has been such a great companion to me over the past two, nearly three decades that I have managed to salvage an entire 3 church fulls of this hymnal from the scrap heap. One thing I always liked was its reliability when it came to providing a wholesome and, in the continuity of tradition, a somewhat decent four hymn sandwich mass that offered people suitable variety whilst also outlining themes from readings, relating directly to the readings of the day and offering praise and thanksgiving. The selection of Eucharistic hymns was sufficient and the Marian hymns are a delight. It might not be the best hymnal in the world but this reliability always impressed me and the CWB II is nearly as reliable on that account, bar the removal of the psalms and the removal OF MY FAVOURITE HYMN from the book...

    But hey... I love Jeff Ostrowski's work on the responsorial psalms anyway so why I would need psalms in a hymnal is beyond me. Jeff Ostrowski, if you're listening/reading, you have saved my bacon many a Sunday!!! Sending you many prayers.

    These days I use a plethora of hymnals to compile a single mass together and I used to be content with one but now I’m being so radical as to pray mass with chant propers and include some of the traditional older hymns in the ordinary form that people consider my music choices to be near extraordinary. Perhaps I’m a little too enthusiastic but I’m enjoying piecing together an ordinary form mass using music from both the eastern and western traditions of the church.

    I ramble...
    In short, if you’re purchasing new hymnals, do not chuck your old ones out, keep a few, donate a few to somewhere who needs it, give to a parish that has a dreaded projector screen to get rid of. But make the most of what you’ve got too and just remember someone's favourite hymn might be in that hymnal your parish wants to chuck.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen hilluminar
  • Elmar
    Posts: 398
    ... “two tacos al pastor” ... Turns out that it was just a gap in my Spanish vocabulary.

    Knowledge of Latin may help ;-) You have to be aware of false friends, though.
  • brahms8
    Posts: 15
    We currently use RitualSong, though it has been my experience that our congregation is accustomed to "oldies." With that demographic in mind and no particular fondness for Latin on their part, I find the Brebeuf hymnal to be an excellent match. Many of Caswell's translations are in it set to generally familiar or eminently learn-able melodies. It consists of two sections: The first are office hymns that have been translated into English and set to aforementioned familiar/learn-able melodies. The second section, consisting of those good ole classic hymns with a few really neat additions, is what makes the hymnal so workable. It definitely has Jeff's fingerprint on it in that the hymnal is exceptionally scholarly (great notes at the bottom of each page on hymn text, history, etc.), but it was definitely a larger collaboration with many priests and theologians vetting the texts. It really is exquisite. The choir and organist editions are coming out in February. I'm really hoping to buy it for our parish.

    Good luck with your search and GOD bless!
  • After a lot of thought we bought the St. Michael Hymnal for our cathedral. As many others here have said, I think it is the best "handful of hymns" available for a parish right now. I'd also point out that at bulk pricing it is less than half the cost of the Jean Brebeuf hymnal's bulk pricing. Brebeuf seems like a great scholarly resource, but I wonder at the practicality of a $28 congregational hymnal without readings.

    I start from the perspective that hymns will always just be songs we sing at Mass (rather than singing the Mass itself). Thus, I don't try to find some idealized perfect Catholic hymnal. What I want is simply access to a good selection of solid traditional hymnody, and the SMH provides that amply. If we had regular liturgy of the hours, then I would want an excellent resource of hymn texts for those truly integral hymns.

    Our solution for the readings was to create a comprehensive liturgy guide with the readings printed in it (along with order of Mass, choir translations, propers, etc.). We actually print this in the front pages of our parish bulletin, which is administered by LPI. LPI does fundraising via the advertisement on the back of the hymnal, so we get our liturgy guide/parish bulletin/readings for free each week. In other words, since we own our hymnals we have no costs associated with liturgical resources or printing. There are a couple of other benefits that sold our rector on the idea:

    1 - limits shuffling of resources during Mass. We just have a liturgy guide and hymnal. No page number for the readings, etc. This also streamlines things for visitors, an important consideration since we are a cathedral.

    2 - while some balk at the disposal of scripture, at the same time our format allows the congregants to take home the readings and propers of the day, along with their parish bulletin and announcements. This is a nice resource for reflection finding its way into many peoples' lives via the habit of taking home the bulletin.

    3 - all the benefits of a liturgy guide (ability to custom tailor announcements about decorum, communion reception, etc. for visitors)

    I'm attaching this week's if anyone would like to see it. I think the basic format and layout is elegant and gets a lot of information across clearly (repertoire for the different choir masses, for example).

    Another benefit is flexibility for me. One beef I have with other resources (e.g. Lumen Christi) is the inclusion of psalm and alleluia melodies in a permanent hardbound readings resource. And, for that matter the inclusion of the psalm texts (which may or may not change at some point). I don't like a missalette forcing me to use a particular musical setting, or confusion resulting if I don't use that setting.
  • TCJ
    Posts: 787
    Back to the IPM, I have spoken to the man who used to be the sales director (or something like that). He told me that the IPM was meant to be a transition missal/hymnal for those parishes that are trying to move away from Gather, etc..
  • GambaGamba
    Posts: 366

    Your setup seems lovely. How are the daily Masses handled – is some other resource provided to give the congregation the entrance/communion antiphons, psalm, etc., or is it left up to those who want such to bring their own Missals?
  • Gamba -

    Daily Masses with music we print a separate simple liturgy guide in-house.

    Daily Masses without music - this is probably the main weakness of not having a comprehensive missalette. We just leave that to those who bring their own resources. At the same time, even when you have a comprehensive (i.e. including daily mass) resource, there are often optional memorials/votive masses and so forth. Our priests felt restricted by the daily resource more than helped, for that reason. Then you often end up with the liturgically strange situation of an announcement about where to find the entrance or communion antiphon taking longer than the antiphon itself (and disrupting mass).
    Thanked by 2Gamba toddevoss
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,436
    Before I learned about the Lebanese immigrants I used to be very confused by the image of pigs being driven across the range.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • In Memphis, we did the math and found that it was cheaper to not have anything in the pews. The thing that had held us back for years was "needing" to provide for the few that came to daily mass—the Cathedral had used booklets for each weekend going back to at least 1997. I've attached an example of what was prepared on a monthly-ish basis for those that attended daily mass.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen