Lift High the Cross/ Crucifer
  • Carol
    Posts: 856
    At Mass today we sang "Lift High the Cross" and I love this tune! I have some problems with half notes that don't seem to make sense from a lyric, breathing, or voice leading point of view. I was curious if this was originally written in another language and the translation doesn't lead as well as in the original language. It does not appear to be the case. If it were up to me, there are places where I would have a dotted half followed by a quarter note to avoid stressing unimportant words and soften a bit of a yodeling feeling in places. Anyone care to enlighten me?
    Thanked by 1cesarfranck
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    According to the data on "Hymnary", the common tune dates from just 1974, while the text is from the late 1800s. The text has been modified by various editors, so what appears in your hymnal may or may not be quite what the composer had in mind when writing the music in 1974.

    https://hymnary.org/text/come_christians_follow_where_our_savior
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    More information:

    https://songsandhymns.org/people/detail/michael-newbolt
  • Carol
    Posts: 856
    Chonak and Liam, thanks for this imformation which I did read. So I see the hymn began as an English hymn so it is not a translation issue. The alternate text at hymnary.org has the same places where it seems awkward as the OCP text. I think it would require each verse having its own adjustments made so you don't have "the" as a half note and other things I find annoying. But, I guess it is just me.
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,048
    @chonak - The copyright is listed as 1974 (evidently a renewal of 1947), but the tune dates from 1916. But I wonder how a work from 1916 can be copyrighted.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    The tune CRUCIFER was composed by Sydney Nicholson explicitly for "Lift High the Cross" and published in the 1916 Supplement to Hymns Ancient and Modern (edited by Nicholson himself). The hymn was first published in the United States in 1974 (whence the 1974 USA copyright).
    Thanked by 4chonak Liam Carol cesarfranck
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    ...composed by...
    Sir Sydney H. Nicholson is a somewhat revered figure in British church music. Not only did he compose Crucifer, he edited a collection of plainchant hymns entitled A Plainsong Hymnbook, which is a compendium of office hymns and other devotional hymnody in English translation. It was published (in chant notation) in 1932 under the auspices of Hymns A&M. It is a trove of hymns for all seasons of the Church year, plus eucharistic hymnody, sequences, and more.

    I was fortunate to obtain a copy from a gentleman in England some years ago. If anyone is able to find a copy it would be a fine addition to his or her library, both for reference and for performance.

    (We sang Crucifer at Walsingham this morning. I wonder how many of our forumites did.)
    Thanked by 7CHGiffen chonak KyleM18 StimsonInRehab Liam Carol cesarfranck
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,933
    Well, since no one else has done a "What did you sing on Holy Cross?" post, this place is as good as any:

    Friday - 6pm High Mass, Sacred Heart, Fort Wayne
    Ordinary - W.J. Marsh "Jubilee Mass of the Sacred Heart"
    Credo III
    Introit, Offertory - full Gregorian
    Gradual - Yon, Christus Factus est
    Alleluia - psalm-toned w/full Alleluia
    Communion - full Gregorian w/verses
    Interlude - Schubert, Ave Maria (not my choice - organist said he had an "organ solo" based on the "Ave Maria chant". Umm, sure!)
    During Veneration of the Relic - Vexilla Regis & Crucem Tuam
    Recessional - ROCKINGHAM, "When I Survey the Wondrous Cross"

    Sunday mass was out of town at friend's parish (St. Stanislaus South Bend) to practice for wedding. Regular Sunday mass except that they sang Bardschmidt's "Holy Cross Mass". They've sung it a billion times. Almost as many times as our choir has sung the Marsh mass . . . but both sounded very nice IMHO.
    Thanked by 3Carol cesarfranck toddevoss
  • Carol
    Posts: 856
    MJO I was sure you, at least, would have some comments on text matching tune, voice leading, etc. Opinions, please, gentlemen! I can't believe I am the only one. Just cause its old, published, and English don't make it necessarily right, do it?
  • Randolph Nichols
    Posts: 398
    Nicholson’s “Crucifer” is an example of American Catholicism’s tendency to euthanize a perfectly good tune with overexposure. The post-VII preference for the refrain-verse structure I suppose is the culprit. As a result I’ve grown weary of “Lift High the Cross,” whether playing it at the organ or singing in the pews. (Other than adding kitschy trumpet flourishes, it’s also not a tune inviting interesting alternative accompaniments.)

    I much prefer Nicholson’s “Chislehurst,” which is paired with two texts in Hymns,Psalms and Spiritual Canticles, Ted Marier’s splendid out-of-print hymnal dating from the early 1970s. Unfortunately, no other American Catholic hymnal editor seems to have recognized its merits.
  • davido
    Posts: 944
    Carol, can you point out a specific instance that the text music underlay is problematic?

    The genesis of this tune is well documented.
    As I recollect, originated as a processional hymn for an religious organization sponsored service that included a long procession of children. The original poem has about 20 verses.
    Thanked by 1cesarfranck
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,085
    My choir jokes about the "Crucified Bears" whenever we sing that hymn, which we did this past Sunday.

    I like the hymn a lot.
    Thanked by 3StimsonInRehab Carol cesarfranck
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,933
    My choir jokes about the "Crucified Bears"


    Much akin to the hymn about that strabismally ursine character, Gladly, the Cross-Eyed Bear.
    Thanked by 3Carol madorganist cesarfranck
  • cesarfranck
    Posts: 162
    We sing it frequently and sopranos know descant from TH82 by memory and congregation sings It from memory. Thus, it would take much effort to change notation or placement of words and I would be sabotaged! While Crucifer is under analysis, I am curious as to how other organists incorporate instrumental interludes with Crucifer. In our space, interludes are often needed or required for times when altar party is processing. Same issue occurs with tune of Engelberg. Ideas or suggestions? The problem for me is playing an improvised interlude after refrain as most of those singing tend to jump into next verse. Not a problem with most hymns.
  • Carol
    Posts: 856
    Davido, it is in the verses. The second measure has 2 half notes "way by" and fourth measure same problem "sign, The" and sixth measure "God in" where I would naturally sing a dotted half and a quarter. It seems to me in each case the second word or syllable is less important or would receive less stress if it were spoken. That's just the first verse and some verses are worse such as "pro-mised" or "brow the." Some of it can probably be finessed by a good choir, but the 3 beat one beat correction seems obvious to me.

    If choirs are joking about "Crucified bears" then it IS NOT just me!! Thank you, Mark and Chonak!
    Thanked by 1cesarfranck
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    https://songsandhymns.org/people/detail/michael-newbolt
    Thanked by 1Carol
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    I understand about the word stress. Kinda reminds me of:what I feel is the "clunky" Old 100th rhythm:
    BE present at our TA-BLE LORD.
    BE here and ever'y-WHERE A-DORED;
    THESE morsels bless and GRANT THAT WE
    MAY feast in Para-DISE WITH THEE.


    Thanked by 3cesarfranck Casavant Organist Carol
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Carol, to me those measures are stating a processional rhythm, which relates to the triumphal imagery of the song. (My impression is that this is a characteristically English detail.)

    Also, those measures avoid breaking a long word phrase into two shorter ones.
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen cesarfranck Carol
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,048
    The hymn was first published in the United States in 1974 (whence the 1974 USA copyright).

    But you can't copyright something that's already in the public domain.
    Thanked by 1Carol
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    But you can't copyright something that's already in the public domain.
    In 1974, was it in the public domain? Ask Hope Publishing Company.
    Thanked by 1Carol
  • Dixit_Dominus_44
    Posts: 195
    “Lift High The Cross” (CRUCIFER) was originally published in 1887, but was revised in 1916. I believe the tune was added in 1916.
    Thanked by 1Carol
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Yes, the text was altered and the tune added and published in 1916, as I stated above.
    Thanked by 3M. Jackson Osborn Carol cesarfranck
  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 443
    Sir Sydney H. Nicholson is a somewhat revered figure in British church music


    And he died in 1947, meaning, I think, that his works will enter the public domain at the end of this year in many countries.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn Carol
  • cesarfranck
    Posts: 162
    Respectfully, I believe some of copyright issues are related to minor revisions of harmonization, texts, number of verses included, and descants attached in various hymnals.
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen KyleM18 Carol
  • drforjc
    Posts: 38
    which relates to the triumphal imagery of the song
    which, ironically, has been watered down in subsequent textual alterations, such as changing "each newborn soldier" to "each newborn servant," etc.
    Thanked by 2Carol cesarfranck
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Older versification, cum Latin adaptation:

    http://www.latinisedhymns.org.uk/hymn/142
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen Carol cesarfranck
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,048
    drforjc is probably closest to the mark here.

    From what I understand, no work published anywhere prior to 1922 is (or can be) copyrighted in the USA, so the tune and the original words would be in the public domain. The blanket copyright claim from 1974 would seem to rule out copying the tune or its original harmonization, although it does not.

    It's not unheard of for publishers to claim such blanket copyright, or at least leave the impression of the same. I have not looked at the original 1916 version of this hymn, but my guess would be that it was not changed enough to warrant a new copyright.
    Thanked by 2Carol cesarfranck
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    My understanding is that current copyright law in the US was enacted in 1977, which is 3 years prior to after (corrected now) 1974. The question, then, boils down to whether the US publication was and still is copyright, given that it was first published in the US in 1974, presumably in accord with copyright law then in effect. Since Newbolt passed away in 1956, if United Kingdom copyright law is in effect, it's possible that the work might not fall into public domain (at least in the UK) until Jan 1, 2027 (death year plus 70 years, rounded to the first of the following year).
    Thanked by 3Liam Carol cesarfranck
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Charles,

    Check your math. 1977 wasn't prior to 1974.... at least not in my admittedly small universe of math experience
    Thanked by 2Carol CHGiffen
  • Incardination
    Posts: 832
    No, 1977 isn't prior to 1974... but the point is still valid.

    The publication occurred in 1974. The point is that the publication in 1974 preceded the current copyright law which was enacted in 1977.
    Thanked by 2Carol CHGiffen
  • Carol
    Posts: 856
    Chonak has, for me, the best counter to my complaints. I continue to think the lyrics took a back seat in order to make that triumphant, processional feel. I still do like the tune. Also true, as cesarfranck pointed out, it is too well known to tinker with now. If someone had asked for my 2 cents back in 1916, that would have been mine.
    Thank you all for an interesting discussion.
    Thanked by 1cesarfranck
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Oop, Chris. The US copyright was issued before current laws took effect. 1974 was prior to 1977. Sorry for the transposition of dates (now fixed above).
    Thanked by 1Carol
  • Dixit_Dominus_44
    Posts: 195
    I agree with rich_enough. The current laws are what they are; Full Stop.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Incardination,

    I accept Charles' point as valid.

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