Where can I find Latin Propers and English Psalm verses for a Memorial Mass for a Bishop?
  • puretonesoprano
    Posts: 59
    Hello!

    I need your help again...

    I am looking for Propers in Latin and Psalm Verses for communion in English for a memorial Mass for a Bishop who passed away recently.

    Can you help? Thank you in advance

    Rebekah
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Do you know what Mass will be used?

    Assuming that this is going to be a Mass for the Dead being offered, rather than the Mass of the day, I would say just use the Requiem propers.

    The Latin bits (Introit: Requiem; Offertory: Domine Jesu Christe---there are other options for the Offertory in the Ordinary Form; Communion: Lux aeterna) are in the Gregorian Missal. Lux aeterna has already been set with English verses in a version of Rice's "Communio" book (I think it's actually called "Communio with English Verses", IIRC).

    The English verse for the Introit can be found in either Fr. Weber's "Propers" or in the Palmer-Burgess "Plainchant Gradual".

    The English verse for the Offertory can be found in Bartlett's "Simple English Propers".

    All of these can be printed for free from the CMAA website.

    Hope this is helpful.
    Thanked by 1puretonesoprano
  • puretonesoprano
    Posts: 59
    They said it's not a Requiem Mass... it's a Memorial Mass. Doesn't that make a difference?
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    No, the choices are the same - the Gradual heading is "Masses for the funeral, on anniversaries, and in various commemorations".
    However the gradual does list a lot of options as alternatives to the usual ones. There is just one which is picked out as paricularly appropriate for priests and religious, which is the Alleluia Ego vos elegi, to be found in the Common of Apostles.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    You can download the Gregorian Missal from the CMAA website (here) if you have not already got one, and look at page 688 and following. Most, if not all, of the gradual options are shown. There is a set of orations for a bishop, on page 705, but just the same choice of sung propers.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    ... And if the full glories of a melismatic Alleluia are not what is wanted, then there are short forms to be found in works such as Chant Abrégés which is also downloadable from the CMAA Resources page, or here , eg on page 208.
  • Paul F. Ford
    Posts: 864
    Why not consult the MIssale Romanum?
    IN VARIIS COMMEMORATIONIBUS.pdf
    136K
  • Paul F. Ford
    Posts: 864
    Here is the English:
    various commemorations of the dead.pdf
    136K
  • Paul F. Ford
    Posts: 864
    And here are the psalm additions:
    commemorations of the dead with psalm additions.pdf
    136K
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    ¿ Because we assume that as this is a music forum the OP is looking for chant ? The missale has Latin texts which must not be sung, and in neither language does it have psalm verses.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    Paul F. Ford :- Oops, seems I am missing something. Where can I find a missal with psalm verses listed?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Probably nowhere, AFH. Since the antiphons in the Missal (whether in Latin or English) are generally conceived as for recitation only, at spoken Masses, psalm verses are not included in the Missal.

    In the United States, it is permitted to sing the antiphon texts from the Missale Romanum/Roman Missal; that's a provision in our edition of the GIRM. So assigning psalm verses to be sung with the sung antiphon becomes a job for the USCCB to carry out, in some other publication.

    The antiphons Prof. Ford cites are in the Roman Missal, starting at p. 1386 of the US English edition.
    Thanked by 1Paul F. Ford
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    The entrance and communion antiphons of the Missal were intended to be recited, not sung, and to inspire the creation of suitable songs in the vernacular.
    The Reform of the Liturgy, A.Bugnini p891
    For the latter purpose it would be helpful to have associated (psalm) texts to amplify the antiphon, (if we want to take up the idea) .
  • Paul F. Ford
    Posts: 864
    Dear A F Hawkins, in answer to the question: "Where can I find a missal with psalm verses listed," the antiphonary, with all the extra psalm verses, is here: https://hymnsandchants.com/Texts/Liturgy/RomanAntiphonary/RomanAntiphonaryEnglish.pdf
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen a_f_hawkins eft94530
  • Paul F. Ford
    Posts: 864
    Pace Archbishop Bugnini, who was writing about the 1970 Missale with the first edition of the GIRM, the sixth edition of the GIRM says, at 48 and 87, "the antiphon from the Missal." That's good enough for me.
  • Paul F. Ford
    Posts: 864
    A F Hawkins, "The missale has Latin texts which must not be sung"; which are these?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    AFH, the Foreword to the Antiphonary says that it has been prepared "in order to assist composers", so it appears that this need which you mention has been addressed, a mere 48 years after the promulgation of the Missale Romanum. Rejoice.

    And I think it is probably clear by now that "must not be sung" does not apply in these United States of America, where particular law approved by the Holy See provides otherwise.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Paul F. Ford
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    Paul F.Ford: As I understand it, the intention was to provide fuller scriptural quotations for the antiphons while preserving the use of the traditional Gregorian chant. I would expect that the addition to the US GIRM permitting/encouraging singing of the Missal antiphons does not extend to singing them in Latin, since IGMR does not include this change. Though I doubt anybody wants to to do that, or has bothered to clarify it with CDWDS.
    BTW, McAfee® Web Advisor warns me against saving the Antiphonary (in Windows®10), though not from looking at it.
    chonak: I suppose we should welcome this belated assistance to composers, though the failure to bolt the stable door has led to generations of mustangs devastating the liturgical landscape.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    chonak: I suppose we should welcome this belated assistance to composers, though the failure to bolt the stable door has led to generations of mustangs devastating the liturgical landscape.


    You and I may agree that this is a fault, other may see this as a feature.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Scripsit AFH:
    I would expect that the addition to the US GIRM permitting/encouraging singing of the Missal antiphons does not extend to singing them in Latin, since IGMR does not include this change.


    Are you contending that the applicable law would depend on the language used for a particular portion of the Mass? That would be an unusual interpretation!
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    Preliminary disclosure - I live on the western seaboard of Europe, not in the USA or any other Americas.
    chonak: I am not sure what the current law in US-GIRM means, and am not competent to judge. However, given that CDWDS are still supportive of authentic (ie traditional) Gregorian chant, I doubt that they intended to give permission to sing in Latin the new missal antiphons for Introit and Communion, still less to compose neo-Gregorian, or any other, music for them. However it would not be that unusual for the rubric to be badly drafted. On this occasion at least, I think that Abp.Bugnini has it right, and is in accord with VII SC.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,094
    The GIRM for the USA specifically includes the so-called Missal antiphons. Arguably, they could have been included under another suitable song, but the inclusion was made explicit for the US to remove doubt over the issue.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    Yes, clearly, in the USA the Missal antiphons get first billing. And I think that is a better option than most of the rubbish music which is often used. In the rest of the English speaking world it is still not permitted, and pride of place is given to GR, which AFAIK does not have an official approved translation into English. Next comes GS, of which ICEL made a translation in 1968, possibly approved (if approval was then required). Furthermore in England&Wales there is no explicitly approved repertoire of songs for Mass, unless this Processional counts (it lacks tunes, and publicity). Consequently we are still mainly using, illicitly, the products of the commercial publishers. [rant]This is A BAD THING.[/rant]
    IMO having the confusion of another set of Latin chants to rival GR/GS would also be a bad thing.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,094
    I doubt it it would create serious confusion among practitioners, my sense being (fwiw) that those who might be confused are very unlikely to be bothering to consider choosing Latin propers to begin with.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    Liam: You're right, I hope, nobody is going to write them, and if they did nobody would sing them. I aplogise, somewhat, for precipitating an argument by writing "which must not be sung" when I could have made my point by writing "which have no associated tunes".
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,094
    Well, people are certainly composing chants for the vernacular Missal propers (I've heard some lovely ones), a development I welcome without confusion.
    Thanked by 2a_f_hawkins CHGiffen
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    I am glad that the US GIRM includes the provision to sing the Missal antiphons; not that I think the provision is itself a great thing, but rather I expect that the provision may have introduced some musicians and clergy to the concept of propers for the first time.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Paul F. Ford
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