The joys of being called a legalist, Pharisee and other possbilities
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,199
    One of my jobs here is to manage the liturgy committee. Rather than seeing it as a burden, I see it as a forum for teaching and enlightenment. It is a wonderful group who are hungry to learn and appreciate my efforts. We have a long way to go, but part of the fun is the journey.

    As I stated here and many other places, the balance between transcendence and immanence is definitely out of whack and a lack of true reading of the foundational documents is at play here. At our last mtg, I sought to help them "critque" the liturgy in light of the documents and the larger tradition and not just out of the seven last words (We have always done it that way).

    To make a long story short, one of the members, a lovely lady with a heart full of desires for good liturgy, told me I sounded like a Pharisee and a legalist and that she was unsure why we needed to read and understand these things.

    Okay, now I get to add that to the list I have already been called: Fascist, dictator, Nazi and the best one, "too Catholic".

    Back to your Lent in progress.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,847
    I have been reminded over and over that I am narrow-minded when it comes to religion and faith. I simply tell them that Jesus said this...

    "quam angusta porta et arta via quae ducit ad vitam et pauci sunt qui inveniunt eam"
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,985
    At the age of 61, I no longer care much what others think of me. I have been called conservative, traditional, lacking in love and the spirit of Vatican II, etc. I just tell them to be quiet and get with the program.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    Anyone who talks the "spirit of v2" is pretending to be a member of the Consilium.
    The Consilium has been defunct for quite awhile.

    ConCilium == Council
    ConSilium == Spirit of v2

    1964-jan-25 Sacram Liturgiam (establishes Consilium)
    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/motu_proprio/documents/hf_p-vi_motu-proprio_19640125_sacram-liturgiam_en.html

    Meanwhile, it seems evident that many prescriptions of the Constitution cannot be applied in a short period of time, especially since some rites must first be revised and new liturgical books prepared. In order that this work may be carried out with the necessary wisdom and prudence, we are establishing a special commission whose principal task will be to implement in the best possible way the prescriptions of the Constitution on Sacred Liturgy itself.


    1964-jun-23 Pope Paul VI address to a consistory on his name-day
    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/speeches/1964/documents/hf_p-vi_spe_19640623_sacro-collegio_it.html
    ("paragraph" 12 Italian to English by Google)
    http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/speeches/1964/documents/hf_p-vi_spe_19640623_sacro-collegio_it.html&sl=it&tl=en&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

    We wanted them with the Motu Proprio of 25 January, which entered into force suffered some of the rules of the Liturgical Constitution, entrusting it to a special Consilium, in addition to the task of preparing the reform of the liturgy on the basis of the general rules contained in the Constitution, even to study the implementation in letter and spirit, according to the forms necessary and proper to the Holy See, what the Council has acted.


    1969-may-08 Sacra Rituum Congregatio (disolves Consilium)
    Latin:
    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-vi_apc_19690508_sacra-rituum-congregatio_lt.html
    Italian:
    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-vi_apc_19690508_sacra-rituum-congregatio_it.html
    (Italian to English via Google translate)
    http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&sl=it&tl=en&twu=1&u=http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-vi_apc_19690508_sacra-rituum-congregatio_it.html

    The Congregation for Divine Worship, in addition to their tasks to be defined once, also assumes the functions of the Council for the execution of the Constitution of the Sacred Liturgy, which therefore ceases to exist as a separate organ, while we determine that it is inserted in the Congregation as a special Commission, which exist as long as they have been completed the reform of the liturgical books.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    [... six years later, wrote:]

    "told me I sounded like a Pharisee and a legalist"

    Well, here's the problem: the moderns will start quoting the laws when it suits them, so why not use legalistic speak? Modernist priests will quote "pastoral sensitivities" or some other law that allows them to deny the use of Gregorian chant or the singing of the Propers, or to ban Latin at their parishes (although that is in direct violation of Trent), and then ignore other laws that say they have to do that stuff. These people don't even do what their beloved Second Vatican Council exhorts them to.
  • johnmann
    Posts: 175
    There's the spirit of the law and then there's the spirit of the law. One contradicts the purpose the law and the other supports it. The Pharisees weren't condemned for keeping the letter of the law but for breaking the spirit of the law. The letter of the law should not be ignored but should be interpreted in the spirit in which it was intended.
  • MichaelDickson
    Posts: 419
    I always get a sour taste in my mouth when I hear people referring to the "spirit of Vatican II". On the whole, I find the written documents to be quite clear. I don't think we need to appeal to some nebulous 'spirit' to understand them. (The role of the Holy Spirit is a different issue altogether, of course.)

    In my experience, 'the spirit of Vatican II' often means "this thing that I wish the documents of Vatican II said, but they don't, but it's really what the authors meant, or should have meant."
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,985
    Vatican II has to be the least-followed church council of all time. Anyone who reads the documents can easily see the disconnect between what is written and what is practiced.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,364
    Six years.
    Thanked by 6Spriggo rogue63 eft94530 Adam Wood chonak M. Jackson Osborn
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    The epithets are designed not to foster discussion, understanding or learning, but to preclude all of these.
    Thanked by 1chonak
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    In another Discussion I wrote ...
    [In a courtroom a lawyer only asks questions to which he already knows the answer.]
    [True story, I knew both parties.]

    After a Mass a parishioner approached an organist
    and provided much critique.

    At some point the organist slid off the bench,
    motioned to it, and said:
    "Thank you! Would you care to show me?"

    The parishioner provided a compact verbal excuse and escaped.


    That bit in bold is the cure-all.
    A compliment followed by question(s).

    Maybe apply the Socratic method to the epithets.
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