Favorite Vatican Two document(s) and paragraph(s)?
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,498
    It seems everyone has a favorite Bible book-chapter-verse.

    Along the same idea,
    What is your favorite Vatican Two document and paragraph?

    For simplicity
    http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/index.htm

    CONSTITUTIONS
    DV = Dei Verbum
    LG = Lumen Gentium
    SC = Sacrosanctum Concilium
    GS = Gaudium et Spes

    DECLARATIONS
    GE = Gravissimum Educationis
    NA = Nostra Aetate
    DH = Dignitatis Humanae

    DECREES
    AG = Ad Gentes
    PO = Presbyterorum Ordinis
    AA = Apostolicam Actuositatem
    OT = Optatam Totius
    PC = Perfectae Caritatis
    CD = Christus Dominus
    UR = Unitatis Redintegratio
    OE = Orientalium Ecclesiarum
    IM = Inter Mirifica
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,498
    I will go first ..

    SC # 22.3

    (obviously my favorite because of the number of times pasted into the forum)
  • WGS
    Posts: 213
    Yes, post Vatican II but you have left out my favorite: Inaestimabile donum - Instruction from the Sacred Congregation for the Sacraments and Divine Worship on Certain Norms Concerning Worship of the Eucharistic Mystery - 1980

    #10 .... "Accordingly, a reprehensible attitude is shown by those priests who, though present at the celebration, refrain from distributing Communion and leave this task to the laity."
    Thanked by 2melofluent KARU27
  • Aristotle EsguerraAristotle Esguerra
    Posts: 1,130
    <font color="sort-of-purple">
    "The hour of Prime is to be suppressed."
    — SC 89d
    <font>
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 7,838
    GS #63


    63. ...For man is the source, the center, and the purpose of all economic and social life.

    REALLY!?!?

    ... is heresey!

    and another:

    Gaudium et Spes # 12:

    "According to the almost unanimous opinion of believers and unbelievers alike, all things on earth should be related to man as their center and crown."[137]


    comments by http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/vatican2/Privatican.htm
    This is blasphemy. There is no other word to describe it. If all things on earth should be related to man as their center and crown, this means that everything should be measured by man's law, not God's. This means that man is actually God, for all intents and purposes - everything is to be related to him. Man has been put in the place of God.


    UPDATE

    An article (coincidentally posted today)

    https://onepeterfive.com/anne-catherine-emmerich-the-two-popes-pagans-and-the-pantheon/
  • Finally there must be no innovation unless the good of the Church.......

  • madorganist
    Posts: 363
    LG 16, which contradicts the Nicene and Apostles' Creeds and proves that the conciliar documents cannot possible be considered infallible:
    But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.

    Inde venturus est iudicare vivos et mortuos. (Apostles' Creed)
    Et íterum ventúrus est cum glória, judicáre vivos et mórtuos. (Nicene Creed)

    Both of these refer to JESUS CHRIST, the second Person of the Most Holy Trinity - not the "one and merciful God" of the Muslims!

    Bonum ex integra causa, malum ex quocumque defectu!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 9,208
    Interesting observation. "...from the moment that heresy enters therein, the Angel who oversees them departs - according to the voice of Basil the Great - and that temple becomes an ordinary house." Wonder how many "ordinary houses" we have worshiped in, if the good saint is reliable.
    Thanked by 1madorganist
  • madorganist
    Posts: 363
    Might as well write Ichabod over the doors of some of them!
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 871
    The 'one and merciful God' whom Abraham worshipped, IS the One God we Christians worship. That Muslims fail to understand that God is One-in-Three and Three-in-One does not mean they are worshipping a different God, there is only ONE. Abraham may indeed have met the Trinity (Gen 18:1 ff), but without getting any developed theological understanding.
  • madorganist
    Posts: 363
    @a_f_hawkins, God had not yet revealed Himself as a Trinity at the time of Abraham. That cannot be said today, nor could it be said at the time of Muhummad, who explicitly rejected the Trinity and the divinity of Christ. In no sense are Muslims worshiping the One who will come to judge the living and the dead.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 9,208
    I am convinced Islam has no connection to Abraham, since its founder was not born until the 6th century. A little late for hobnobbing with Abraham and discussing theology with him. Islam was made up by its founder during a time when anti-Trinitarian heresies raged in eastern Christianity.

    For the record, I don't believe in revelations by golden tablets or in angel panties, either.
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,229
    Is choosing from the first set of schemata for the Council an option?
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,922
    The truth is that only in the mystery of the incarnate Word does the mystery of man take on light. For Adam, the first man, was a figure of Him Who was to come,(20) namely Christ the Lord. Christ, the final Adam, by the revelation of the mystery of the Father and His love, fully reveals man to man himself and makes his supreme calling clear. It is not surprising, then, that in Him all the aforementioned truths find their root and attain their crown.

    He Who is "the image of the invisible God" (Col. 1:15),(21) is Himself the perfect man. To the sons of Adam He restores the divine likeness which had been disfigured from the first sin onward. Since human nature as He assumed it was not annulled,(22) by that very fact it has been raised up to a divine dignity in our respect too. For by His incarnation the Son of God has united Himself in some fashion with every man. He worked with human hands, He thought with a human mind, acted by human choice(23) and loved with a human heart. Born of the Virgin Mary, He has truly been made one of us, like us in all things except sin.(24)

    As an innocent lamb He merited for us life by the free shedding of His own blood. In Him God reconciled us(25) to Himself and among ourselves; from bondage to the devil and sin He delivered us, so that each one of us can say with the Apostle: The Son of God "loved me and gave Himself up for me" (Gal. 2:20). By suffering for us He not only provided us with an example for our imitation,(26) He blazed a trail, and if we follow it, life and death are made holy and take on a new meaning.

    The Christian man, conformed to the likeness of that Son Who is the firstborn of many brothers,(27) received "the first-fruits of the Spirit" (Rom. 8:23) by which he becomes capable of discharging the new law of love.(28) Through this Spirit, who is "the pledge of our inheritance" (Eph. 1:14), the whole man is renewed from within, even to the achievement of "the redemption of the body" (Rom. 8:23): "If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the death dwells in you, then he who raised Jesus Christ from the dead will also bring to life your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who dwells in you" (Rom. 8:11).(29) Pressing upon the Christian to be sure, are the need and the duty to battle against evil through manifold tribulations and even to suffer death. But, linked with the paschal mystery and patterned on the dying Christ, he will hasten forward to resurrection in the strength which comes from hope.(30)

    All this holds true not only for Christians, but for all men of good will in whose hearts grace works in an unseen way.(31) For, since Christ died for all men,(32) and since the ultimate vocation of man is in fact one, and divine, we ought to believe that the Holy Spirit in a manner known only to God offers to every man the possibility of being associated with this paschal mystery.

    Such is the mystery of man, and it is a great one, as seen by believers in the light of Christian revelation. Through Christ and in Christ, the riddles of sorrow and death grow meaningful. Apart from His Gospel, they overwhelm us. Christ has risen, destroying death by His death; He has lavished life upon us(33) so that, as sons in the Son, we can cry out in the Spirit; Abba, Father(34)

    GS 22
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,922
    In His goodness and wisdom God chose to reveal Himself and to make known to us the hidden purpose of His will (see Eph. 1:9) by which through Christ, the Word made flesh, man might in the Holy Spirit have access to the Father and come to share in the divine nature (see Eph. 2:18; 2 Peter 1:4). Through this revelation, therefore, the invisible God (see Col. 1;15, 1 Tim. 1:17) out of the abundance of His love speaks to men as friends (see Ex. 33:11; John 15:14-15) and lives among them (see Bar. 3:38), so that He may invite and take them into fellowship with Himself. This plan of revelation is realized by deeds and words having an inner unity: the deeds wrought by God in the history of salvation manifest and confirm the teaching and realities signified by the words, while the words proclaim the deeds and clarify the mystery contained in them. By this revelation then, the deepest truth about God and the salvation of man shines out for our sake in Christ, who is both the mediator and the fullness of all revelation. (2) DV 22
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 6,011
    I am not what some hastily label an 'Islamophobe'. Islam has and has had its share of incredibly devout, holy, and loving followers; and its share (it perhaps seems at times to have more than its share) of pitifully hateful and murderous perverts. Of these latter, our own Christianity has had its historical share, a share which doesn't happen to be on the front pages at the present time. Both of us have had our share of 'crusades' in which converts were won by the sword rather than by evangelistic ardour - that 'love of God which passeth all understanding'.

    Still, it cannot by any stretch of the imagination be said that Muslims worship the same God as do Christians and Jews. They reject the Trinitarian nature of God and the divinity and Godhead of Jesus of Nazareth. Since these are attributes of the One True and Living God, a 'god' which has not these attributes is ipso facto not the same as that worshiped by Christians. Further, we, by our Faith, would be compelled to conclude that such a 'god', not being the One Triune God, does not nor cannot exist. Then there is their concept of heaven: it seems to be less the gift of a perfect and loving union with God in his heavenly kingdom, the triumphant Communion of Saints, than to be waited on for all eternity by scores of virgins. How utterly childish and remarkably immature - and non-Christian.
  • Chaswjd
    Posts: 99
    SC par. 54 “Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.”

    Does anyone want to test how effectively that has been done in your average suburban parish?
    Thanked by 2WGS StimsonInRehab
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 9,208
    Their concept of heaven seems to be less the gift of a perfect and loving union with God in his heavenly kingdom, the triumphant Communion of Saints, than to be waited on for all eternity by scores of virgins.


    Their heaven is more a form of an earthly paradise. The old joke, tired but still a bit funny in a way. The Koran supposedly promised 70 virgins to martyrs. Some wag said that a newer and more accurate translation promised martyrs for Islam a 70-year-old virgin. Different perspective, to be sure.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 1,545
    It's true Mohamed was no contemporary of Abraham (or was any founder of a first century religion) and that Islam does not accept the Trinity. Were we really trying to establish that Muslims are neither Jews nor Christians?

    Thanked by 1tsoapm
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 9,208
    Were we really trying to establish that Muslims are neither Jews nor Christians?


    I think we were establishing the view held by the Church for centuries, that we don't worship the same God. This despite what some more politically correct recent popes have maintained.
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,392
    Classically from the time of St John Damascene, and therefore without regard to political correctness, Islam was long treated as a species of Christian heresy, not in the same circle as heathenism, paganism and the like.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 9,208
    I agree on the Christian heresy part. It was another anti-trinitarian heresy common at the time, especially in the east. However, the contemporary Muslims I have talked with vehemently deny this.
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,392
    "However, the contemporary Muslims I have talked with vehemently deny this."

    Which does not dispose of the classical Christian treatment, of course...
  • Andrew Malton
    Posts: 756
    So the ancient people (basically everyone) whose physics was based on four Elements actually walked on a different Earth and breathed different Air, because they were wrong? And saw different stars because they believed them only small and nearby?

    And the moderns who disbelieve in evolution and hold to a young earth, actually see different gorillas from the majority who believe?

    There is One God and only One: this is a philosophical fact. No matter how wrong a man is in what he believes about God's nature, God remains God. No matter if a man's worship of God actually does God no honour : still God remains God.
  • madorganist
    Posts: 363
    Classically from the time of St John Damascene, and therefore without regard to political correctness, Islam was long treated as a species of Christian heresy, not in the same circle as heathenism, paganism and the like.

    I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise, but I would find the following assertions equally objectionable:
    ...the Ebionites, who along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.
    ...the Arians, who along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.
    ...the Nestorians, who along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.

    I, for one, don't plan to be judged by the god of the Arians, nor do I strive to live my life accordingly!
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,392
    "I, for one, don't plan to be judged by the god of the [N],"

    Except that's not quite the same thing. It's not a formula where the syntax doesn't matter.
  • madorganist
    Posts: 363
    Do the Creeds not tell us which God will judge the living and the dead? In what sense do those who deny His divinity "along with us" adore Him?

    "For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and giveth life: so the Son also giveth life to whom he will. For neither doth the Father judge any man, but hath given all judgment to the Son. That all men may honour the Son, as they honour the Father. He who honoureth not the Son, honoureth not the Father, who hath sent him." - St. John 5:21-23
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,392
    Because it's not two Gods...one God. Again, confusion of formula and syntax. Reminds me of CS Lewis about how errors travel in pairs, so that in our eagerness to flee the embrace of one we risk rushing to embrace the other.
  • Gamba
    Posts: 69
    If we could make an analogy:

    I believe in “good church music”, when I open the Graduale and sing today’s introit.

    Haugen believes in “good church music”, when he opens his laptop and bangs out another hit.

    What he calls “good church music” is not what the Church says “good church music” is.

    However, he and I and you all believe in “good church music”; even when we do not comprehend or disobey what the Church teaches, it is still what we strive towards.

    So it is with Islam; we believe in “the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob”, and so do Muslims. We disagree about who that God is: the first person of the Trinity, or the one who spoke to Muhammad, but that does not change the one we both are referencing.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 9,208
    As my Coptic friend from Egypt says, "There is nothing good about Islam." He has experienced the dark side of Islam, to be sure. Thankfully, I have not.

  • Liam
    Posts: 3,392
    And there would be/have been those whose experience of Christians would cause them to say the same of Christianity.
    Thanked by 1a_f_hawkins
  • Aristotle EsguerraAristotle Esguerra
    Posts: 1,130
    professing to hold the faith of Abraham != actually holding the faith of Abraham
    Thanked by 2CharlesW chonak
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 9,208
    And there would be/have been those whose experience of Christians would cause them to say the same of Christianity.


    Not so much in recent times. The Southern Baptists might nearly tract and Bible you to death, but your life and property wont be in danger.

    Of course, we always hear about the evil Crusades when Christians invaded the middle east and attacked the poor Muslims. Does it matter that they were simply trying to retake Christian lands overrun by Muslim invaders?

  • mmeladirectress
    Posts: 483
    St. Thomas (II-II:11:1) defines heresy: "a species of infidelity in men who, having professed the faith of Christ, corrupt its dogmas. [...] There are, therefore, two ways of deviating from Christianity: the one by refusing to believe in Christ Himself, which is the way of infidelity, common to Pagans and Jews..."

    And to Moslems. To be heretics, they would have to first profess the faith of Christ (which they haven't).
    It seems that after V II there is a big desire to say that every human being is in the Church, baptized or not, Trinitarian or not, etc. Doesn't work.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW madorganist
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 9,208
    It seems that after V II there is a big desire to say that every human being is in the Church, baptized or not, Trinitarian or not, etc. Doesn't work.


    You nailed it! It's universalism.
    Thanked by 2KARU27 madorganist
  • madorganist
    Posts: 363
    We disagree about who that God is: the first person of the Trinity, or the one who spoke to Muhammad, but that does not change the one we both are referencing.

    But it is not the first person of the Trinity who will judge mankind at the last day, but rather the second, Jesus Christ, the God-Man who died for our sins and rose again. This is His own teaching as recorded in the Gospel and the faith professed by the Church. Clearly, those of other religions are not referring to the same divine judge in their doctrines and worship!
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,237
    Those of you who are complaining about LG 16, which I do not particularly like either, should quote it more fully, including this line:
    Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.

    This assertion, with its various conditions that must be met, provides the context for the statements in LG 16 about non-Christians.

    It's a case of the Council fathers giving a vague soft-sounding statement with one hand and with the other placing limits on it, by restating the existing well-established Catholic teaching.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW JL
  • mmeladirectress
    Posts: 483
    how does LG 16 square with St Cyprian, who was a Doctor of the Church?
    "No one can have God for his Father, who does not have the Church for his mother."

    And even if there are many well meaning protestants or even pagans who strive to live for God according to the light they have... how does LG16 square with people who strap explosives on their children and send them through tunnels to kill Israelis? Is this a dictate of conscience, moved by grace? I wonder.
    "The time is coming when everyone who kills you will think he is doing a service to God."
    Thanked by 2madorganist CharlesW
  • tsoapm
    Posts: 79
    Category: “Amusements”

    A laugh a minute.
    Thanked by 1Carol
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 6,011
    Many many years ago (sometime in my twenties) I was touring the Indian mound culture's remains as I drove along the Mississippi. I had climbed to the top of a very large mound, which must have seemed right next to heaven by its builders, and as I viewed all the Indians going about their daily lives down below and thought of the priests and elites who would have been standing next to me at the apex I began to cry - profusely. My tears were on behalf of the ancient people who inhabited these mound cities - on behalf of them because they did not know Jesus or the Christian religion, had no faith or sacraments, no Church, and would not have had a chance at salvation. It all seemed unfair and cruel. They were, after all, real people, many of whom likely had good hearts, consciences, and love. Salvation was/is the reward of faith in our Lord, a goodly and righteous life, participation in the sacramental life of the Church, and so forth, and love.

    When I returned to Houston and visited my good priest friend (who would one day become the first pastor of Walsingham), I told him of my experience. He calmly explained that all men will meet Jesus, God the Son, when they die and it is he who will judge them according to what is in their hearts. This brought me great relief and is, I think, a far more loving act by the God of Love, who forgives sin, who forgives our shortcomings.

    There are still those who think that 'outside the Church there is no salvation'. I think them to be mightily proudful, presumptuosly cock-sure, treading perilously on spiritual egg-shells, and horribly judgmental to the point of trespassing on that judgement which is God's alone. Holy writ tells us that God is love, and that he and she who have not love do not know God - ipso facto don't. We more wisely pray earnestly and with great love for those outside the Church. We unwisely and at the peril of our own souls think that they are or will be consigned to those infernal regions which we should neither wish nor dare to presume upon any one.

  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 871
    Anybody know how many of the bishops at VII opposed the statement quoted by chonak?
  • Carol
    Posts: 282
    Thank you, MJO! I have been reading all these posts and feeling anxious over many of them and my gut reaction was definitely dismay at some of what others wrote. I think what you write is very wise. Praying for those outside the Church is certainly what the Church models for us, especially in the Good Friday Liturgy when we recall the Passion and Death of Our Lord who died for us all.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • madorganist
    Posts: 363
    There are still those who think that 'outside the Church there is no salvation'.
    Which is the teaching of the Catholic Church, not a mere private opinion! I've already mentioned the Apostles' and Nicene Creeds, now let's consider the Athanasian:
    Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the substance of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the substance of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of substance; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic Faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.
    Thanked by 1Incardination
  • madorganist
    Posts: 363
    Furthermore, the Church condemned as errors the following propositions, quoted in the Syllabus:
    16. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation. — Encyclical “Qui pluribus,” Nov. 9, 1846.

    17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. — Encyclical “Quanto conficiamur,” Aug. 10, 1863
  • Incardination
    Posts: 387
    I think part of the problem is - with no condescension implied or intended - a lack of understanding regarding the doctrine EENS (extra ecclesiam nulla salus).

    I'm not sure why someone would believe this to indicate pride or spiritual presumption. It most certainly does NOT mean that those within the Church are automatically saved, somehow akin to the fundamentalist question "are you saved?". Nor does it exclude invincible ignorance, or baptism of desire.

    Those that are saved are within the Church. Those who are part of the Church through invincible ignorance have a hard path... consider all of the challenges there are to salvation in general terms - the prevalence of temptation to mortal sin, how many things are provided through the Church to draw souls back from the precipice of damnation. Mortal sin, through which the soul dies for eternity, is removed either through Baptism or via the Sacrament of Confession -- or through a PERFECT Act of Contrition. How challenging for the soul without recourse to all of the aids and comfort of the Church for us sinners.

    EENS doesn't mean that we automatically assume someone who died as non-Catholic is in hell. WE DO NOT KNOW FOR CERTAIN. Theologians suggest that the only soul we can reasonably postulate as being in hell is Judas ("better for that man had he not been born"), but even in this case there is no absolute certainty.

    Those that die as non-Catholics could have experienced baptism of desire at the last moment; they may have suffered from invincible ignorance (and either never committed serious sin or expressed PERFECT contrition for their fall). But IF such a soul is in heaven, they are part of the Church.
  • Incardination
    Posts: 387
    One other consideration... often, one of the arguments I hear against EENS is that "God is a God of Love"... but the same God of infinite love and mercy is simultaneously balanced by His infinite justice. If there is error of focusing solely on one side of the equation there is just as much error on focusing solely on the other side of the equation... if there is error in emphasizing the justice ONLY of God, there is as much error in emphasizing His love and mercy ONLY.

    The God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New - He is incapable of change. The message of the OT was that of justice, that of the NT one of mercy / love - but God is the same God across both testaments.

    The God who takes mercy on the Jews and leads them out of Egypt is the same God who will not allow Moses to enter the Promised Land simply for his moment of doubt in bringing forth water from the rock. The same God who sends poisonous serpents among the Jews in punishment for their murmuring is the one who instructs Moses to construct the bronze serpent on the cross that restores them to health - if they will look upon it.

    In the NT, the same Jesus Who on the one hand works many miracles of mercy is the very Same Who drives the money-changers from the temple, whipping them in His just anger. The same Jesus Who forgives sinners so frequently also tells the apostles that those who do not receive the preaching of the Word "...it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city".

    In both testaments, we see sinners who receive great mercy and sinners who are struck dead for their sin.

    Love, mercy, AND justice.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 6,011
    I have no difficulty with Incardination's 'just' emphasis upon God's justice as a balance or complementary aspect of his love. True it is that there is no justice without love, and that there is no genuine love without justice. This was well rehearsed by Incardination.

    What I wrote above on the subject of love and a concomitant and innate fair play was prompted by a genuine concern for those outside the Church, or those good people who never heard the Gospel, yet who lived lives of decency and kindness. The matter that rankles me is that some in the Church seem to know (or act as if they know) that these and those who are outside the Church or who never had a chance to hear the Gospel are ipso facto roasting in the infernal regions. They are the twin brothers and sisters of some Protestants I have met who actually believe that the pope is anti-Christ and that all Catholics are or will be roasting in those infernal regions. When we encounter such persons our reaction should justly and lovingly be one of absolute revulsion. We (from the lowliest lay person to the pope himself) are no man's judge and are dangerously ill advised to think that we can second guess what God's judgment will be. It is our job to pray for all, to love all, and to commend all to God's mercy - and leave the divine justice, mercy, and love to God, and to him alone. I, for one, would not want to be in the shoes of those who seem to think 'ha! you see! he (or she) was/is not Catholic (or did/does such and such), therefore he (or she) is/will be in hades'. One doesn't have to go too far to find such pitiless and foolish folk - indeed, they are as much, if not more, in need of our prayers as those whom they assume are lost souls.