Question on EF Mass procedures
  • priorstf
    Posts: 460
    Attended an Extraordinary Form Mass this past week and encountered a few things I have questions about. For starters, it was to be a Low Mass, but the celebrant intoned the Kyrie, Sanctus and Agnus Dei and the congregation joined in. He/we also sang the Pater Noster. And afterwards it was announced that the pastor has decided that the Propers for all EF Masses in the future will be the Propers of the Feast of the Sacred Heart.

    My understanding would indicate this is wrong because:

    1) Nothing is to be sung at a Low Mass. Once you sing one thing, Ordinary or Proper, it is properly a Missa Cantata and everything is to be sung.

    2) The Pater Noster is not to be sung by the people. Indeed it is not even to be spoken aloud by them (except "Sed libera...").

    3) Each day of the year has its own Propers and they really should not be replaced by some "standardized" text. (My guess is that it's being done to make it easier on the Priest so that he need learn only the one set.)

    Is there error in my opinions? I'd rather not raise a ruckus if it could mean the priests decide not to say the Mass at all, but I'm discouraged that we are seeing an EF/NO blend, and that it's almost a showpiece event rather than Mass the way it should be.

    Thanks.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,473
    There is a permission granted by the Vatican to allow the Pater Noster to be sung by the congregation, I believe it is online somewhere.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    that's very interesting. I've heard traditionalists say that they don't favor general permissions because the "anything goes" attitude of the current age might be imported to the EF. So far, this does seem to be the exception.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    priorstf,

    I think you are correct, and I think that parish would do better to say a Latin Ordinary Form Mass ad orientam.
  • Chrism
    Posts: 869
    1) The statement that "nothing" is to be sung at a Low Mass is not grounded in liturgical legislation. Whether the priest is allowed to selectively sing his parts is a debated matter. The choir and people may sing the texts of the Ordinary and Proper at appropriate times at Low Mass for nothing prohibits it neither explicitly nor implicitly.

    3) The Propers of the Sacred Heart are generally allowed under the 1962 rubrics on any First Friday which is not a I or II Class Feast (which occurs in May and June this year). If this was a First Friday Mass, the priest might be generally in the right.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    "1) The statement that "nothing" is to be sung at a Low Mass is not grounded in liturgical legislation. Whether the priest is allowed to selectively sing his parts is a debated matter. The choir and people may sing the texts of the Ordinary and Proper at appropriate times at Low Mass for nothing prohibits it neither explicitly nor implicitly."

    Chrism, I don't think there are any authors that back up this view. Am I wrong?
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Jeff O opines, "I think you are correct, and I think that parish would do better to say a Latin Ordinary Form Mass ad orientam."
    To which I whole heartedly agree, and have reached a personal conclusion that this particular "outcome" is the underlying full fruit of B16's motu, SP. I cannot help but notice that there is significant confusion among those who post about EF experiences as represented by this thread, that it is coincidental to the issue of clericalism that affects the manner in which OF practices are determined and implemented.
    Secondly, the concluding Mass at San Diego further expiates my conclusion. Perhaps I am projecting wishful thinking precisely because I believe this is the only option that I see could ACTUALLY come to fruition at my parish in my lifetime, given the significant clerical preferences and lack of cohesive thought and planning.
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    1) The statement that "nothing" is to be sung at a Low Mass is not grounded in liturgical legislation. Whether the priest is allowed to selectively sing his parts is a debated matter. The choir and people may sing the texts of the Ordinary and Proper at appropriate times at Low Mass for nothing prohibits it neither explicitly nor implicitly.

    This is my understanding as well. For one thing, it is clear that hymns were sung (through indult mostly?) at Low Mass, and that this extended to the Ordinary in some places. Our FSSP pastor is open to having a sung Ordinary at Low Mass as well. As to the Propers, never heard of that.

    Charles, agreed about the full fruit of SP.
  • priorstf
    Posts: 460
    Thanks for the responses so far.

    ghmus7 - Thanks for the tip on the Pater Noster. The letter from Ecclesia Dei permitting the singing in the EF is indeed on line.

    Chrism - I think that much of the drive towards the EF Mass has been to help standardize the Mass, so allowing local parishes to do things their own way can be counterproductive. The Church could easily have said "sing" in describing the Low Mass, but did not do so.

    At the same time, do you have any reference to the authorization of the Propers? The rules you cite would certainly help our fledgling schola a great deal from July through December, but might be problematic for May and June.

    Jeff O - The parish already does offer a Latin NO (complete with recorded Gregorian Chant at communion). The EF is supposed to be distinctively different. I'm not quite sure we're meeting that standard yet.
  • Chrism
    Posts: 869
    Jeff: Chrism, I don't think there are any authors that back up this view. Am I wrong?

    Yes. Lawrence Yates described it that way in 2000:

    "We cannot pick and choose which parts of the Mass we will sing. This is permitted during a low Mass where the celebrant is in no way involved, and such singing does not disturb the rite of Low Mass. If, however, the celebrant is to sing at all, we are immediately governed by the rubrics pertaining to a solemn Mass. "

    While O'Connell disliked the practice, he never described it as forbidden. No author who claims it to be forbidden has provided a citation to liturgical law.

    priorstf: "The Church could easily have said "sing" in describing the Low Mass, but did not do so."

    It is difficult to describe in one word all allowed permutations of a thousand-year-old tradition that developed organically--much of the "sung" Mass is not sung, for example. The Mass is called "read" (lectu) in 1958, because the priest reads the Mass, not because accompaniment is forbidden.

    "Do you have any reference to the authorization of the Propers?"

    Take a look at the Latin Mass Society Ordo 2009. Under Liturgical Notes, there is a brief First Friday section, and under each month for the letters "SH" on the 1st Friday. This Ordo is for England and Wales, but the local variations are noted as such. You can also look at the actual rubrics in the General Rubrics of the Roman Missal (1962), no. 385(b), which can be found in Latin in the front of the Missale, or in English translation online here.
  • Richard R.
    Posts: 774
    The point about Votive Masses is a good one, and it may take some educating for modern Catholics to wrap their heads around it.

    The assumption here is that by doing his Low Mass singing, the priest is expressing a modernist "do your own thing" attitude. In fact, there was probably much more fluidity prior to the Council than we credit, and this sort of blurring between Low Mass and Missa Cantata was probably not uncommon, especially in those areas strongly influenced by the Liturgical Movement of the early 20th century.

    For priests just learning the traditional Mass, I would generally advocate consistency, such as the training provided by the FSSP and Institute of Christ the King. But even among their members, you can find variety in their approach to the traditional Mass. I would talk to this priest, not confrontationally, but inquiringly, and try to get his rationale for doing what he does. I hardly think this is an egregious offense, compared to what we have endured in the past 40 years.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Richard makes a good point about proportionality here.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    chrism,

    I guess I meant any author before 1960's.
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    Sometimes I wonder if Benedict may be hoping to promulgate a new missal for the EF that adopts the modern calendar, rubrics for new saints's days, a second reading on Sundays and Feasts, and a lectionary that parallels the OF. There is certainly precedent for this over the centuries. I think at the same time, certain communities should be allowed missals older than 1962 if approved by Rome. This type of liturgical diversity can be healthy if overseen well by Rome. The various religious orders with their unique liturgies never broke from Rome, after all.
  • Chrism
    Posts: 869
    Jeff O.,

    From the Irish Ecclesiastical Record (1907), Vol. XXI, published with Nihil Obstat and Imprimi Potest, p. 201, has a question on the "Character of Music at a Low Mass":

    REV. DEAR SIR,--An answer to the following questions will greatly oblige:--
    1. (a) At a Low Mass may a choir sing the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei? If so, how are they to manage about the first words of the Gloria and Credo? (b) May a choir sing the Proprium Missae (of the day itself, or any appropriate piece from another feast) during a Low Mass?
    2. [snip]
    B. W.

    1. There is no general law of the Church that regulates the character of the music, or singing, that may be rendered during a Low Mass. As far as the Liturgy is concerned the functions of a choir in these circumstances do not seem to be contemplated at all. In the absence, therefore, of general legislation on the subject the Bishop is the person who is to decide what kind of music may be sung at a Low Mass. Should he permit it, there can be no objection, as far as we can see, to the pieces suggested by our correspondent. If the Gloria and Credo be selected the initial words of each--that are intoned by the Celebrant in a Missa Solemnis or Cantata--must be sung by the choir. It would be very irregular and meaningless to pass over the beginnings of these sacred chants.

    Subject to the same reservations our answer to the second part of this question is in the affirmative.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    amazing.
  • Chrism
    Posts: 869
    Also see The Ceremonies of Low Mass (Dublin 1846), p. 17, paragraph 28, says "When the Priest has occasion to cross the Choir, while Gloria Patri, or any thing similar, is being sung, he should stop and bow with the Choir, until the part is concluded. (Footnote: Merati and others)".
  • David Sullivan
    Posts: 355
    St John Cantius Society posted their take on rubrics for music at low Mass here: http://www.cantius.org/go/music/liturgical_services_music_for_low_mass/

    I've often read and heard that before Vatican II, many, many weekday Masses were votive Requiem Masses. People talk about attending--and even singing--daily Requiems each morning before school.

    Attempting to summarize notes in the FSSP 2009 Ordo: Votive Masses of the Sacred Heart of Jesus may be offered on First Fridays (confirming Chrism's comment), Immaculate Heart of Mary on FIrst Saturdays, and Christ the Eternal High Priest on First Thursday or First Saturday, along with "special exercises of piety." Daily Mass for the Dead may be offered on fourth class ferias. Votive Masses may not be celebrated on 1st or 2nd class liturgical days. "On third class ferias of Lent, they are not prohibited by the rubrics, but the ferial Mass would seem preferable, at least in churches where only one daily Mass is celebrated."
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Chrism,

    Thank you.
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