Oh dear. Found this case that is not very encouraging.
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-7th-circuit/1171153.html

"This age-discrimination suit by the former music director and organist of a Catholic diocese, dismissed on a motion to dismiss, requires us to consider the scope of the rule that federal courts may not exercise jurisdiction over the internal affairs of religious associations."

This seems like it began mid-conversation. Whatever has occurred is obviously upsetting. I will pray for you, Continuousbass.

Prayers for your situation...

Consult an attorney.

Thank you for thoughts and prayers, dear forum members. Without having to resort to any details, I'm grateful for the response. Certainly my diocese deserves better than age discrimination ("we're old, you're the youngest one here").

Back in my journalism days, I got laid off (at age 24 and zero days) as a token young person dumped with a bunch of 50-somethings, essentially to get around any age discrimination lawsuits. On one hand, I was super-unlucky and never really worked in journalism again. On the other hand, it (slowly) started the process that led me back to the organ bench, and eventually to the music director job I have now, nearly nine years later.

It's funny how God arranges things sometimes.

Employment is such an odd business. You sign up to be cooperative and supervised. But the hiring and firing aspects are not like that. You have to switch sides all of a sudden, and face these same people across a negotiation table.

Even odder when they're priests, or the bishop's HR or Finance officers. But there ya go...

The court case referred above called to mind the yesterday's Matins reading (1 Cor 6:1-6), the Apostle reproaching Christians for the disputes among them seeking recourse to pagan courts. If in the Continuobass' case, too, the dispute possibly involved the repertory questions then the secular court might judge similarly. Maybe better to seek the solution Church-internally. For that one might wish to consult canon lawyers first. This site seems to refer for a gratis consultation: https://stjosephcanonlaw.com/
There are other sites, too, like www.canonlawprofessionals.com

Andris, I think the (beautiful) passage in 1 Cor is more about individuals' disputes with others. In the Old Testament, these things were settled by the judges and the kings, all within the tribe. Even more, with the Holy Spirit, shouldn't there be wisdom enough among us to judge?

There are a lot of reasons why I think this doesn't apply directly to employment law in the Church. I'll mention 2.

1. The Church in this case can't judge because it is one of the parties in the dispute, so there is a conflict of interest.

2. Every diocese also retains its own lawyers, so choosing not to consult one for spiritual reasons is not what the Church itself is doing.

It's not surprising. Things are probably the same in other states too, since courts, for First Amendment reasons, tend to stay out of churches' decisions about musicians, as they are lay people who help conduct services.

Based on the context of the conversation so far...

I think that what @Continuousbass is talking about is either denial or termination of employment as a liturgical musician due to his or her "more advanced" age.

>> Are you saying they didn't let you sing in a choir because you're not old enough?
speaking for myself, definitely yes, that's right.

After a couple of decades in which parents have come to me saying ":oh my son / daughter really wants to be in the choir (although son/daughter is never in sight, and never expressed any such wish), I came to the unhappy conclusion that it was the parents really who wanted to hear them sing, but would not want to stay while son/daughter practices...
Enough. The other singers work too hard to put up with this. So we added to our very few rules: All singers must have own transportation.
I recommend it.

In many work situations, the motive for discriminating against older workers is the temptation of replacing them with cheaper younger workers. Is that at play in this case? Most church musicians have rather low pay anyway, so that the potential savings from lower pay are not much.

All singers must have own transportation.
I recommend it.

I guess that's an effective way to not get anyone who's visually impaired or poor or even someone who gives a ** about the environment.

Not sure it would work in getting singers, though, I've never heard of a correlation between musical skill and car ownership before.

nothing was said about one having to own a car. And the veiled accusations of uncharity are offensive.
where are those random moderator reminders that used to pop up... about keeping the conversations here civil.

Charles,

I'm not plural, nor schizophrenic. "These folks", surely, is overblown as a description.

I'm not plural, nor schizophrenic. "These folks", surely, is overblown as a description.

"What have I done to displease you that you put the burden of all these people on me." Moses, Numbers 11:11. Chris, you did notice that was in purple?

In any case, I seem to have thrown this thread way off track, and for that I apologize. Maybe I should return to lurkdom.

Never fear and don't worry about it. Years of teaching middle-schoolers has made me extremely thick skinned and immune to what anyone says.

THE FRIENDLY REMINDERS HAVE BEEN RESTORED.
THIS MEANS YOU.
:-)

I'd like to see large parishes provide their own van service: I'm all for measures to help people get to church or even mid-week activities, if the parish can provide that for teens and elderly non-drivers.

But in smaller churches, where that's not possible, it does seem necessary to expect that choir members plan to arrange substitute transportation, in case their usual provider falls through.

Charles,

Mine should have been in purple, too. Sorry for the confusion.

I understand the transportation thing. I had 3 teenagers, same family, who wanted to sing in the choir. They had good voices, but were too young to get licenses. It quickly became difficult and impractical to get them to and from church for rehearsals.

So how did their parents get them to other hobbies that they do?

In my neck of the woods, it would not be unusual for a parent to stay on site, even in the room, with a child or teen attending a church activity. If the parents can't/won't transport them, they walk, or catch the bus.

It's most certainly not the church's responsibility to provide transport for people.

This reminds me of a really ridiculous situation I had before Christmas. I arrived earlier than usual before our weekly rehearsal, and some of the kids in children’s choir were working on their play with the Sunday school teacher. I’m in my office working and one of my youngest kids comes in. The others had left, and I said “Where is your dad?” “Oh he had to go do something he’ll be back in a little bit. Umm okay, what would he have done had I not showed up early, just left her there alone? The girl is 9. She’s a nice kid and very motivated so I asked if she wanted to have a little lesson, and we just worked on their Christmas Eve piece until the dad returned. I was annoyed, but didn’t say anything because I’m trying to grow that part of our music program and don’t want to piss off a parent.

I haven’t dealt with transportation issues yet, but if an adult choir member needed a ride and it wasn’t too far out of my way I’d have no problem picking them up. I have a seven passenger van, and it’s perfect for transporting older or disabled people, or anyone really. There’s this idea of carpooling too. I know some of my choir members ride together sometimes. I know what it’s like to be without transportation, lived for two years in a small town with no car and no public transport. Thankfully I had family there to help out when I needed to go somewhere. We are still a one vehicle family, but now live where there is excellent public transportation and we can get the bus right at the end of our street. I guess I’m a softy and don’t mind giving rides if I know someone needs one, even if I know my charity can and will be taken advantage of at some point. I guess it comes with the territory. It’s really depressing and isolating to not have any way to get around, and I definitely wouldn’t want it preventing one of my singers from participating.

Wow. FidemInFidebus, if your situation had happened to me, I would immediately have proceeded with the child to a public area of the building where there was likely to be other people around. Being alone with a child in an enclosed area pretty much cannot happen. Being along with 2 or more of them is just OK - ideally there should be 2+ adults (one police vetted at all times). And this is as much for the protection of the adults' reputations as the children.

Transporting children - again, you can never be left alone with one of them. So if one child needs to be taken home by church (or school) personnel, two others must come along for the ride, so that the adult is safe on the return journey.

If lifts are to be shared or organised - it must be done by the parents, not be the church.
Wayyyy to risky Guess who would be blamed if there was an accident.

FWIW - I don't even own a car. If a place cannot be reached using public transport or a lift I've organised, then I don't go.

Let us, rather, treat children as children and stop treating normal, good people as if they are criminals.

Yah, well, it's not US who need that preaching, my friend. I spent time with the Boy Scouts 30 years ago or so, and during that time, BSA handed down their equivalent of VIRTUS. The lawsuits were expensive; defensive actions are much cheaper. Also happened to have HR responsibilities in same time-frame, same stuff came down.

We live in a very flawed society.