Which tune with Hail Redeemer?
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,922
    And where do you live?

    St George's Windsor, US.
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,392
    Ditto (Northeast USA).

    For reference, here's Hymnary's index for all 7.7.7.7D tunes (though I guess that technically, Hail Redeemer is a "7.7.7.7 with refrain" text, it's just that its refrain is 7.7.7.7);it would be lovely to have a sort for the trochaic subset, though if memory serves 7-foot meters have a higher incidence of being trochaic rather than the otherwise much more abundant iambic:

    https://hymnary.org/tunes?qu=meter:7.7.7.7d in:tunes
    Thanked by 1JonathanLC
  • Same - Cincinnati, OH
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,026
    US--Rigby. My pastor is a Brit and loves this tune. I confess that I have come to love it even though I grew up with St. George's Windsor.
  • REX by William Henry Grattan Flood

    Down under.
    Thanked by 1JonathanLC
  • Cleveland- St George's Windsor as well
    Thanked by 1JonathanLC
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,237
    ST GEORGE'S WINDSOR (US/MA), though in the wake of Thanksgiving Day, that tune is more remembered for "Come, Ye Thankful People Come".
    Thanked by 1JonathanLC
  • Hugh
    Posts: 169
    Cet. par., I'd love to do it to "Humility" by John Goss, composed for "See Amid the Winter's Snow" (Caswall). There's a similar lift in intensity (elan?) from verse to refrain in both melody and text. Unfortunately, I think the proximity of the Feast of Christ the King to the Christmas season precludes this selection.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen JonathanLC
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,392
    Hugh

    That is a *brilliant* suggestion for a tune! While I loves me "See Amid The Winter's Snow", I suspect it's fairly rare as a congregational hymn in Catholic churches in the USA (there's just too many more popular traditional Christmas hymns to compete with for programming), so it would be a *great* way to get a congregation familiar with an unfamiliar tune....
    Thanked by 1JonathanLC
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,283
    IMO that would be an infelicitous marriage of text and tune. HUMILITY has been paired almost exclusively with "See Amid..." When a text and a tune have been paired in a Christmas offering, it is best not to try to use the tune for another text.

    And, contrary to what Hugh has written, I do not think the musical shape of "Hail, Redeemer, King divine" fits the contours of HUMILITY. Those opening words call for a fanfare of sorts, and that is ST. GEORGE'S WINDSOR.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,283
    kevinf, are you sure about that tune being named RIGBY? It's not listed on hymnary.org. There are three tunes named RUGBY, but none have a 7777(D) meter.
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  • I think Charles Rigby is the composer. The tune name might be King Divine? Perhaps it also goes by "Rigby".
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,283
    Thanks, incardination. Yes, it's C.W. Rigby's KING DIVINE.
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  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,922
    I have mixed feelings about pairing HUMILITY with HRKD.

    It is a tune and text "marriage," so to speak. And yet on the other hand, it is a rather clandestine marriage, at least in the US, where SATWS is usually ignored in favor of Christmas carols--the season being so short. Few know the hymn.

    As far as suitability goes, HUMILITY seems aptissimus for the spot designated by the GIRM for a "hymn of praise" at Mass, i.e. post-Communion.
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,392
    HUMILITY strikes me as a more contemplative tune that blossoms/unfolds, and while HRKD at first blush might seem only to be an emphatic praise hymn text from the get-go that seems destined for a marching tune, its fuller stanzas betray greater complexity that might benefit from a more contemplative tune. YMMV.

    And I love My Country 'Tis of Thee to MOSCOW - not that I will ever hear it other than myself singing it. It reveals other dimensions of the text. And I adore DANBY for any suitable text. (Having had to sing FESTIVAL CANTICLE from the pews this past Sunday, I can say that I am no fan of tunes that endear themselves to organists but are more like vocalises for pew singers. Thisss iz thuh fee-ye-ye-YEAST ov-ICK-ter-ee!)

    I do have a more squares-and-contra-dancing approach to matching texts and tunes, and see it less as wedded pairs than a larger suitable company of agreeable possibilities that reveal different aspects of the personalities of the texts and tunes.
    Thanked by 2Carol JonathanLC
  • ViolaViola
    Posts: 246
    The name of the original tune is KING DIVINE and yes, it was written by Charles Rigby. We sing it to that tune, and I have never heard it sung to any other (here in the UK). It's a particularly rousing tune, so very suitable.We sang it for Christ the King last week and the organist gave it full blast and the congregation responded. The hymn was written for the new cathedral in Liverpool, dedicated to Christ the King, back in the 1930s I believe. The outbreak of war in 1939 called a halt to the original grandiose scheme, and when they eventually got round to finishing it they had insufficient money to complete it, so settled for what is now known locally as 'Paddy's lampshade' placed on top of the original crypt. You can see it at
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2f/Liverpool_Metropolitan_Cathedral_at_dusk_(reduced_grain),_corrected_perspective.jpg
    Do try the tune KING DIVINE, it's wonderful and is only associated with that hymn.
    Here it is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1drtim65OA0

  • Humility and 'See Amid the Winter's Snow' -
    What God hath joined together let not man put asunder!
    _______________________________________________________________

    'See Amid...' was traditionally sung at the Christ Mass at St Ambrose, Houston. throughout the late sixties when I was organist there. I introduced a lot of English hymnody and choral literature there at that time, having been sought out because i was Anglican and would know what to do with English liturgy. I've not encountered 'See Amid..' at any other church since then. It is a wonderful carol and deserves to be more widely known in the US.
    (Hmmm - maybe I'll mention it to our choirmaster at Walsingham!)
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 3,791
    This recording just about says it all:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1drtim65OA0

    Oops, I see that Viola beat me to it above. But it bears repeating!!!
  • Hugh
    Posts: 169
    I agree with the sentiments expressed above re. not allowing "Humility" to flirt with other texts - I think that's what I meant by "cet. par." But from behind the proverbial veil of ignorance, I'd join "Humility" with HRKD in a heartbeat.

    I agree with MJO: "See Amid" is a great Christmas hymn and yet almost totally unknown - I tear up every time I read the words, and "Humility" is such a brilliant tune for it. This is definitely sung by the angels in heaven. I've been annoying people at work and in the car recently by singing it over and over. RIP Fr Caswall & Goss.

    I had a King's College vinyl recording years ago that I played so much it ended up terribly scratchy. That effect only added to its poignancy! I think it was this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPgo-UfyJgc

    BTW, time to open another thread perhaps, unless it's been done already: what other Advent/Christmas hymns/carols evoke tears for you, and at what point? Another one for me is "O Babe Divine" (Rolle(?)/Pettman) - I, a toffy director, invariably choke up at the words "When I fly north, south, east or west"! Have no idea what the factors are, but I'm not denying. As for "Come Thou Redeemer", I'm a write-off from the outset.
  • Hugh
    Posts: 169
    Last thought:

    Right after the General Judgment, let's make a date for those of us who get through, God willing: we'll all gather and sing through every contesting tune for the great hymns, angels assisting, and make a decision there and then as to what tune goes with what hymn for the rest of eternity.

    Of course, the Blessed Trinity and Our Lady will have the final say, but you know ... subsidiarity!

    Deal?

    God bless.
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,026
    My apologies...i was working without my hymnal in front of me. The tune is BY Rigby as everyone has noted. And its tune name has been duly noted.

    I think the tune is not very common in the US but it is really wonderful.
  • Hail Redeemer is the perfect example of why we should not be messing with tune/text pairings.

    Even among my musically untrained volunteers, there are two (at least!) distinctly different schools of thought about the correct tune. However they don't have training to realise this, and just assume that the other is playing it wrong. Result = I am too scared to programme HRKD except when there is exactly ONE musician playing and singers who I know will cope with the difference.

    For a good text, choose a choone, and stick with it.
  • Thanks, Hugh, for that link.
    I will enjoy it many times over.
    I think that I had the same record.
    I donated all my LPs to the Fondren Library at Rice U many years ago.
    Some, I wish that I had kept.
  • KyleM18
    Posts: 136
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSD_sUusly8

    From the cathedral that this was written for. I use it exclusively to KING DIVINE, even though my hymnal uses it to a different tune.
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  • Hugh brings up a great point - some hymn texts have more than one good tune associated with them.

    Case in point, from the polar opposite end of the liturgical calendar: "All Glory Laud and Honor". I grew up with ST THEODULPH and still prefer it that way. But leafing through the English section of the St. Gregory Hymnal (a rare occurrence, as I tend to dislike Montani's tendency to reassign tunes to texts arbitrarily) I must admit that I fell in love with his setting of it to the tune by Michael Haydn.

    Or, on the other hand - some good hymn tunes have more than one text!

    e.g. AURELIA. "The Church's One Foundation" is passable, but always read like a laundry list to me. However, applying the tune to Caswall's "O Jesus Christ, Remember", I think, brings out the spirit of a plaintive, yet hopeful, cry to the Almighty.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,283
    BTW, if the text given at
    https://believersportal.com/hail-redeemer-king-divine-hymn-lyrics/
    is what Fr. Brennan originally wrote - or something close to it - very little of it is used in the USA: just the first stanza, a slightly altered refrain, and a couplet from a later stanza that is included in a newly-fashioned second stanza. (Only two stanzas seems to be par for USA hymnals.)

    All versions published in the USA seem to have slightly altered the original refrain's Lord of life, earth, sky and sea to read: Lord of earth and sky and sea "Life" really does not fit with earth, sky, and sea, and it also makes the line clumsy and lacking in euphony.
    Thanked by 2Liam CHGiffen
  • ViolaViola
    Posts: 246
    Interesting thread.
    O Jesus Christ remember and Aurelia always go together here. I find it a very emotional setting.
    There is also a very prayerful setting of Caswall's 'O Godhead hid' by Sir Richard Terry, which always takes me back to Benediction in a darkened, incense-filled convent chapel when I was at school, with Sr Angela cranking out the harmonium. Is this the tune used in the US for this hymn?
    Also, 'Lord of life, earth, sky and sea,' IS indeed the original penultimate line for Hail Redeemer, but I suppose that doesn't mean it can't be changed. The hymn originally had lots of verses, presumably for use as a processional. Perhaps some of the ones sung in the US are from the original but are not used here, where we seem to stick to the same four verses.
    And finally, there is another tune occasionally used for See amid (a very popular carol here) but it's a jaunty French noel, so not as fitting as Humility.
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • ViolaViola
    Posts: 246
    Christmas Morn.
    We sang it at primary school. The nuns said that 'Humility' was the Protestant tune; I suppose it is the Anglican one, but we'll be singing it at Midnight Mass at the cathedral.
  • ...The nuns said...

    Hmmm... do you think that Humility knows that it's the Protestant tune???
    Did the dear nuns think that one would turn into a Protestant by singing it???
    Thanked by 1Viola
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,283
    MJO, it's a "cradle Catholic" thing. You'll never understand.
  • Actually, Fr, I do understand.
    I used to feel the same about Anglican stuff.
    And, in some ways, still do.
    Especially about Ordinariate stuff.
    But I recognise the ultimate folly of such attitudes.

    Hmmm...
    I wonder how many Catholic churches have been built with 'Protestant' bricks?
    Protestant workmen?
    Why some might even have 'Protestant' wiring.... or 'Protestant' roofing... and....
    Shame! Shame!
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,392
    Cooties is the technical term for the attitude.
  • If, as Fr @ronkrisman suggests, that is Brennan's original text, then it is much better preserved in Australia.

    In older hymnals you'll find the 1st, 7th, 3rd and 4th stanzas (in that order), and the 2nd stanza (Angels, saints...) as the refrain.

    In newer hymnals which are afraid of "archaic" language, the words are edited: the throne is thine becomes the Lord of Time (whatever that means), lowly becomes wayward, etc.

    And it seems REX is less universal than I thought. Indeed, the Hymnary listing has only two sources, both Australian.
    Thanked by 1JonathanLC
  • Here in Singapore, we use Hail Redeemer sung to DIVINE MYSTERIES, or #307 in the New English Hymnal. It is adapted, of course, to fit the text, with the first note split into a (double?)-dotted crotchet and a semiquaver.
  • There is also a very prayerful setting of Caswall's 'O Godhead hid' by Sir Richard Terry,


    Viola, could you locate a copy of this setting? And share?
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  • ViolaViola
    Posts: 246
    Sorry, just catching up with this.
    Now that the hordes of Christmas/New Year visitors have gone back south of the border I'll search this hymn out.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 3,791
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  • ViolaViola
    Posts: 246
    That version is a very weird arrangement of Sir Richard's SATB hymn! I'll send a scanned version from the hymnbook.
  • ViolaViola
    Posts: 246
    Here it is. The name of the tune is AQUINAS
    image