Conservative/Progressive Dioceses
  • Greetings all!
    Had a friend ask me if there were various dioceses (I THINK I spelled that correctly!) around the country that leaned more 'conservative' (ie 'traditional') or more 'progressive' (progressing towards what I dont know--perhaps the total elimination of reverence and good taste) musically and liturgically. I know he is considering a move and seems to be open to moving to another part of the country for the right job but he needs to know which dioceses to investigate.
    So, ARE there dioceses out there that the average parish would be more musically and liturgically traditional or is it going to be a case of 'seek and ye shall (eventually) find' ?
    Any thoughts would be great.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,849
    hmmm.... don't know if anyone is willing to touch a question like this on this board!
  • While many dioceses could be accurately and fairly associated with these categories, no one with a clearly decipherable identity in this forum would touch this question in a public post!
  • Dan F.Dan F.
    Posts: 205
    I don't think there is an accurate way to answer this question. Every diocese is made of a spectrum of Catholics, from daily communicants to C&E Catholics, from praise and worship to Gregorian chant in the EF only, from Catholics who believe all that the Church teaches in the Catechism to those believe this-that-or-the-other-doctrine must change. Does this person have in mind the bishop of the diocese? Bishops change with some regularity while the population of the people in the pews take longer to change demographically.

    I don't think this should be a criteria for where to move. Rather, I think your friend should try to find a parish home near a prospective employer where the mass is truly Catholic and the faith is solidly taught.
  • Mr. Z
    Posts: 159
    Lincoln Nebraska has been mentioned as being conservative. St. Louis has had the influence of a conservative bishop, and other mid western diocese (but not so much in the norther reaches) seem to have a little more conservative bent.
  • I would reframe the question as such-
    Are there dioceses that have at least one ecclesial community (church, monastery, basilica, cathedral) that displays a requisite amount of respect towards authentic liturgical philosophy and praxis throughout the categories of options and rubrics in prevalent documents? And has that church's influence had a noticeable, tangible endorsement by its bishop as exemplary to the rest of the diocese?
    One could obviously use St. John Cantius in Chicago, or St. Edward's in Newark, CA. as such locales.
    But as long as a diocese seems to maintain a "missalette mentality" that is proven by the number of parishes that subsribe to the throwaways, the issue of conservative/liberal or orthodox/progressive is moot. YMMV.
  • priorstf
    Posts: 460
    Without getting into opinions of trad vs prog, what about a fairly straightforward set of statistics for starters. Simplest might be how many parishes are in your diocese and how many EF celebrations are there each month? Beyond that might be how many parishes offer 24/7 devotions? That might give a feel for it.

    Our diocese, for example, offers about 1,300 Masses per month at its 38 parishes. Of those, there is 1 EF Mass. And it has been offered exactly 1 time in the history of the diocese, with the second celebration coming next Friday. There are 2 churches offering 24-hour adoration chapels.

    Not sure how that fits into the scheme of trad/prog, but there it is.
  • Employing 'conservative' and 'progressive' as terms to discern genuine musicianship and liturgical solemnity can sometimes mislead. Cambridge, Massachusetts is often acclaimed as the most "liberal" community in the United States, yet St. Paul Church (home to the Harvard Student Center and the Boston Archdiocesan Choir School) thrives there. The parish is liberal in that its parishioners are independent thinkers, but they are nonetheless diligent in maintaining high muscial standards and correct liturgical observance. Harvard University always gets a knee jerk response as being liberal, yet Michael Novak, Alan Keyes, Avery Dulles and a host of other conservatives and moderates are among its graduates. (And let's not forget Olbash the elder.)

    I've yet to be convinced that even a bishop's leanings determine local attitudes. Life is a bit more complex and therefore what happens within a diocese reflects that.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,514
    I'm not sure the question of the orientation of a diocese is potentially fruitful. Music directors are hired by pastors, and work with pastors, and pastors are normally stable in a parish. If I were thinking of moving, I would take advantage of the interview process to make sure the pastor had the orientation I was looking for and the leadership ability to back up a good music program.
  • Richard R.
    Posts: 776
    "...make sure the pastor had the orientation I was looking for and the leadership ability to back up a good music program."

    A good point, to which I would add: You might also determine the general policy of the diocese concerning priest rotation, and, as far as possible, how long your good pastor might expect to remain in his current parish. Unless you are prepared to move with him (which some musicians have done).

    Remember, too, that "conservative" does not necessarily equal "more traditional". Conservatism may just as easily be a staunch adherence to the status quo (a missalette in every pew; Glory and Praise on the organ...). These days, advocating the traditional is a very progressive thing to do.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,849
    Here we go again with confusion because of terms. (see schola vrs choir) Call a spade a spade. It comes down to proper liturgical music vrs non. The terms prob and trad are not good descriptors for locating havens of superior liturgical musical practice. These days they are as difficult to find as an oasis in a desert. Beware of running toward a mirage.