Influences Sacred and Profane -
  • In composing program notes for an upcoming Christ the King recital I have been reminded yet again of the influences, deliberate and cultivated, of secular music on those musics intended to grace the rites of the Church. Even Bach is not free of this seeming taint. Of course, we are all aware of secularisms in the sacred music of Handel, the classicists, and others through the romantic era and into out own time. In organ music there are not only traces to be found in the master of masters, Bach, but in the French alternatim organ masses of the late baroque, whose versets are not only replete with popular Italianisms, but shamelessly mimic minuets and other secular forms - yet, whilst complaining of secularisms in the would-be sacred music in our day, we have no qualms about playing them as bonafide Church music. The same may be said of the post baroque voluntaries of Stanley, et al., which are, one really must admit, pure (though fine) entertainment.

    There is, of course, a certain point at which the musical vocabulary of any given era may be as validly used for sacred as for profane musical discourse. After all, a treatise on Aquinian aesthetics will inevitably use lots of the same words which, re-arranged, could treat of, say, the influence of van Gogh on Picasso. Still, there is a recognisable use of vocabulary which, whether musical or literary, defines a work as sacred or profane. Is it possible for the one not to influence the other? A Tallis or a Tomkins motet or anthem could never be mistaken for a secular statement. Conversly, the motet's sister form, the madrigal, could not likely be mistaken for a sacred gem. Even Josquin's treatement of secular lays in sacred works so transforms them that their secular roots are hardly detectable. Segue to our day, and there is no such 'transformation' of the secular into sacred. With bald effrontery the secularisms to which sacred religious words have been put retain their secular flavour. It is not only retained, but entertained in deliberate preference to any sacred vocabulary or aesthetic. On the other hand, how is this different from such an example as Charpentier's equally entertaining Messe de Nuit pour Noel - except that Marc-Antoine's music is, by a very long shot, better music.

    Related to this conundrum is the seeming reality that whilst obvious musical profanisms are very often found, even cultivated and tolerated, in sacred music, the opposite does not seem normally to occur, except, perhaps, by way of deliberate parody for a given effect. The interesting aspect of this is that secularisms in would-be sacred music are not offered as clever parody, but as bald invasion with the purposeful intent to replace the sacred aesthetic. For example, the Dominican sisters' Te Deum, subject of another recent thread, which, but for the sacred text, would quite naturally be assumed to be just another maudlin love song, or the syrupy theme song of yet another tawdry film. It is exemplary of nearly all music from the secular arena that has been dragged into the Church, music which is not merely secular, but preferably inspired by the musical aesthetic of the entertainment sector.

    It is increasingly evident that we live in a culture which is both passively and actively hostile to religion, the Church, to God, and any overt expression of faith. This reality manifests itself not only in the secular spheres of society, but even in the teachings and attitudes of many in the Church itself, not by any means excluding any and all ranks of the clerical order. The secularisation of religious and sacred music, applauded by the majority of Christians in our land, is but another manifestation of this. Not only is orthodox belief and practice an unwelcome embarrassment to many supposed Christians of all communions, even moreso is truly sacred music.

    Comments and observations on these dichotomies may follow....

  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,165
    Won't all sacred music styles go back to a profane background if we go back far enough?
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    @bhc: not if one believes the theory that Gregorian Chant is descended from Hebrew temple-chants.
  • No.
    Western and Eastern liturgical chant have their origin in Jewish temple worship and Syriac ritual cantillation. It is likely that all music originated in pre-history's most ancient soil as ritual cantillation and that genres of non-ritual music evolved from it.

    One of my points above, simply put, was that in the modern era secular genres influence and modify sacred ones (if not outright replace them!), but not vice versa. This is curious and, in history's light, eccentric. There is one great exception, namely, that crowning glory of the Western musical achievement, tonal counterpoint. This evolved strictly within the sacred music realm and remains one of its hallmarks, though it found its way into secular genres where it has been put to profound effect by Beethoven, Brahms, and others into our own times.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Vilyanor
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    culture which is both passively and actively hostile to religion, the Church, to God, and any overt expression of faith. This reality manifests itself not only in the secular spheres of society, but even in the teachings and attitudes of many in the Church itself, not by any means excluding the clerical order.


    Yes. Matter of fact, a secular blogspot (today!) makes the same claim, noting that there is a "civic religion" which germinated in the early 1900's and is in near-full bloom today. And he notes that 'religions' do not play well together, so the prior 'Christian' hegemony is now on the wane. We have observed a similar path in the Church, but beginning in the 1960's.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    Hmmm MJO opens a huge topic...could the blurring of secular and sacred styles for church music actually be the root of all our evils in this present day?
    Hmmmmm
  • no, not all our evils by any means.
    I do not think that secular musical style alone would not ask the congregation to sing, "You and I are the bread of life [...] broken and shared by Christ That the world may live."
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    Yes, but can you imagine that being sung to a traditional style? That's my point...the introduction of popular styles allows for the inclusion of texts such as the one you cite. Just an idea.
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  • at the Colloquium a few years back, they did the Follies and there was someone there who had a talent for taking a well known modern(ist) hymn and changing irs style to that of Bach, etc. So yes, I dare say that that one could be reset in the same way.

    are you asking would those lyrics have been tolerated in former ages? Certainly not. but that's not the same thing. Regardless of musical style, the doctrine, whether spoken, chanted, or sung, has to be solid, or we have nothing.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    mme, you've made a good case for singing PROPERS and ORDINARY instead of hymn-ditties, although I've heard Ordinaries which are only a few hot licks off-Broadway, too.
  • KyleM18
    Posts: 150
    Or TV shows, for the ordinary. Missa "My Little Pony", anyone?

    I would agree on the above point, that it was the bishops of the VII era that created the drive for the "folk" and now "sacro-pop" style of church music. I don't know their meaning for this, but I remember once asking the former parish priest at my church after we were told to stop chanting the propers and the ordinary (in the youth choir, nonetheless). I was told that in seminary, it was taught that chanted ordinaries and the propers were bad for the cultivation of faith because they made the church seem irrelevant to the modern era. Because the evolution of church music began to stem in a much different direction than the secular music (about the time of jazz, I was told) people would feel that modern music in the secular style would be more familiar and thus more relevant. I believe this was passed on by our bishop (who currently creates his own Eucharistic prayers for use, but that's another story.) He was one who did not want organ to be played at the cathedral, much less the common parishes.
  • >> Because the evolution of church music began to stem in a much different direction than the secular music (about the time of jazz, I was told) people would feel that modern music in the secular style would be more familiar and thus more relevant.
    oh sure, that's why people left in droves. As a friend once said, "The Church is not supposed to change with the times; the Church is supposed to change the times."
  • The bishops are certainly more responsible than any for the liturgico-musical debacle which followed the council. Next in line are the priests. Next in line are religious men and women. We all know the glowing things that the council said about the preservation of chant, sacred music, and the organ, and choirs. We also know that the priests and bishops came home from the council and lied about what it said, saying that it 'did away' with all that - the very opposite of what the council said.

    It seems like beating a dead horse tiresomely to mention it yet again, but these men should not escape the excoriation which is their due for the lies they told, and the fabricated rationales (such as Kyle relates) by which they projected their own negative feelings onto unfortunate generations, robbing Catholic people of their heritage.

    It is unprecedented in the history of all religions that a clerical order deliberately lied, prevaricated, and purposefully uprooted and destroyed a precious culture and a priceless heritage. There is nothing like it, no parallel, in all of history. And to think that we call them 'excellency' and such.

    The rationale that Kyle relates certainly resonates with one of the bywords of that era - some will remember that one overriding concern, not of believers, but of their intellectual elites, was 'relevancy'. This was the 'God is dead' era.
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  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    it was the bishops of the VII era that created the drive for the "folk" and now "sacro-pop" style of church music.


    SOME Bishops, R. Weakland being one. Most Bishops are now and were then ignorant as posts about music of any sort; they took whatever poisonous advice was given them, and nodded assent at the "get with the times" foofoodust of the Usual Suspects, most of whom left the priesthood and/or the Church....
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    I should add that the "advisers" were usually equipped with multiple degrees which, of course, "qualified" them.

    As someone remarked, "Those ideas were so stupid that only the educated could fall for them." Or as a Catholic League official said of R. Weakland: "He is educated far beyond his intelligence," an aphorism which certainly applies to many, many others.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    @dad29. Is this a slam at being educated? Contrary to the saying, ignorance is not bliss.
  • Is this a slam...

    I don't think so.
    I believe that dad's point is that some people can be educated, even highly educated, and still be ignorant.
    One might propose that the pudding that is the proof of this is the post-conciliar liturgical debacle, and the minds which purposefully engineered it.
    Neither education nor intelligence is, ipso facto, a signifer of wisdom or sagacity.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    MJO is right. And as we all know, not all "education" is obtained within ivy-covered walls. Some of it--and sometimes the BEST of it--is obtained in seminars, workshops, and readings not assigned by Perfessors...
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  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,165
    It is unprecedented in the history of all religions that a clerical order deliberately lied, prevaricated, and purposefully uprooted and destroyed a precious culture and a priceless heritage. There is nothing like it, no parallel, in all of history.


    Methinks, thou hast forgotten the Protestant Reformation.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • Methinks...

    The Protestant Reformation was not 'a clerical order [which] deliberately lied...and uprooted a precious culture...'. It was a revolt of some clerical and lay members of that culture, who left it, taking certain large parts of the population with them. In fact, it would have gotten nowhere without the overt backing of a number of German magnates who saw this as a way to enhance their own power and independence from the empire. (Even Schilling admits as much in his account of the Thirty Years' War.) This is quite distinctly different from what I have described above, in which most of the clerics of all ranks participated in and engineered the purposeful destruction of Catholic liturgy and music whilst remaining in the Church and enjoying utter freedom from any meaningful interference from a helpless or conniving 'Rome'. They didn't leave the Church (at least not physically) but stayed within it with the deliberate goal of refashioning it in their own cheap vision. Not even vaunted 'Rome', the almighty 'Vatican', nor any apparently piteously helpless pope lifted a finger to say 'this is not what the council said, you may not do this'. They were, in fact, for the most part, complicit. No - this has never happened to any religion in all of history.

    This is relevant to this thread because of the street music and entertainment genres which were brought into the Church by those who engineered this transformation. This, too, is unique in history, a history in which the sacred, including the sacred's music, has been quite distinctive from that of the profane world. Whatever the sins of the Reformation's leadership, their music was, by and large, good, and even gave birth to some of our civilisation's greatest musicians. Not so our Catholic iconoclasts of the twentieth century - ha! no good music for these fellows. No, for them the people were capable of or only deserved musical trash.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    ... who engineered this transformation(?)...our Catholic iconoclasts of the twentieth century - ha! no good music for these fellows. No, for them the people were capable of or only deserved musical trash.


    I don't see how one can advance this "conspiracy-based" contention without naming of names, Jackson. And let us not forget that the effects of such a conspiratorial effort then had to be world-wide (as there was bad music all over Europe by the 80's.) Are you prepared to lump Gelineau, Westendorf and Deiss into the same dreck bucket as Repp, Wise and Fitzpatrick?
    It's never that simple in my estimation.
  • Name names? The list would be virtually limitless. It would be easier to name the names of those who spoke out or actually did something to counter the wholesale transformation of Catholic liturgy and music. No one, not a soul, refused to participate in this calumny. Can you name any who did? The results speak for themselves.

    To be fair, I know of one priest (ONE and only ONE) in all those years who, in Houston, would have a series of NO Latin masses during Eastertide and would engage me to supply the propers and a polyphonic mass with a paid choir and orchestra. He received no end of flack from the chancery and the Catholic community at large. Surely you are not unaware of the intensity of ill-will and outright hatred that was directed at any and all who weren't a party to the 'Spirit of Vatican Two' cabal.

    You name Genlineau. Well, he was a very exceptional phenomenon, wasn't he.. It will be a date far in the future, if ever, that the Catholic Church produces (and embraces) a Herbert Howells or Benjamin Britten, or the likes of any of the stars who are currently writing stellar music for the CofE. One would sooner expect snow in Houston.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Forgive my presumption, but the use of the phrase "those who engineered" vexes my understanding of wha' happened(?) Engineers are focal managers of any enterprise, from locomotives to landscapes. So the limitless progenitors of washtub folk, gebrauchsmusick, and lounge lizard liturgies did so, not from others' marching orders, but from an absence of marching orders from TPTB. (I believe we agree on this point, the salient oversight clergy abrogated their responsibilities during this era.)
    If there is one "group" that helped engineer the overall dilution of a solid sacral ethos in liturgical music in the first fifty years of the post-conciliar praxis, it might be _ _ _, well...prudence prevents any further explication.
    Lastly, I have to wonder if the vacuum actually started in the sixties, or was predicated after Tra le....
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,048
    Msgr. Richard Schuler's series of articles "A Chronicle of the Reform" (page 357 of the pdf) recounts the "conspiracy" in great detail, complete with copious footnotes, and naming the names of those who "engineered" it.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Thanks, Sam. Msgr. Schuler says it so much better (pp.370-372)-
    It became clear that the problem was a theological one, not a musical one. Those who analyzed the decrees of the Vatican Council on sacred music could see that the musicians
    were capable of doing what was asked. They could provide what was ordered, but the problems lay in the theology of worship, indeed in the very fundamental concepts of the sacraments, the priesthood and the Church itself.
    ...

    Who is responsible? In the field of liturgical music, those who voiced their opposition to the conciliar directives at the congress in Chicago and Milwaukee were associated with the National Liturgical Conference, Universa Laus, the Bishops' Committee on the Liturgy and the Music Advisory Board organized under that committee. The activities of these groups in the years following the Fifth International Church Music Congress provide the answers to many of the questions asked by Catholics who wonder what has become of their musical heritage, what has happened to deprive them of the sacred worship of God that the liturgy should be.



  • Melo -
    Just name one (just one will do for now) excellency (other than the schismatic Lefebvre), one emminence, one holiness, one seminary, one diocese, one Vatican entity who stood up, didn't back down, and said 'this is sacrilege, this is not what the council advocated, we are not going to do this, you may not continue this', and made it stick. I think that the answer is 'none'. Not one single bishop, cardinal, diocese, not one pope, not one seminary, nary a priest, and certainly not anyone in Rome.

    It also bears mentioning that, whereas the council said A and everyone went home and did B, B has been foisted off on us in blatant disobedience and without legitimate authority. Rather odd, don't you think, that a Church which expects obedience perhaps more than any other attribute blinked and did nothing, absolutely nothing about it.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    As I said, we're arguing the same point, unless you're implying guilt by omission as proof. I found it oddly refreshing to be reminded that M. Schuler cited the conspiratorial aspect as well in the chapter.
    Chicken or egg/theology or music?

  • .
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    Lot's of good comments here...if they would only listen to us...
    Melo mentioned Lucian Diess...this is a good example of the problem with this sacropop repertoire: Diess was ALL THE RAGE for many years - just look at the current edition of the breviary, about 40% of the hymns are by Diess. Someone thought that music would last...but I have not heard a Diess tune sung in say 8 years.
    There is a reason hymnody has lasted and with chant is evergreen.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    I have heard Deiss used within the past year, but not here. A video of Mass from N.D. de Paris included one of his songs during the entrance procession.

    I get the impression that songs in verse/response form predominate in France and Italy, and not metrical strophic hymns.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Diess was ALL THE RAGE for many years

    I cantored for Deiss in the late 70's for a week; at that time (and now for my money) he was hardly considered sacropop. He was/is a boomer clergy fave, for sure. His music was very idiosyncratic with odd rhythmic phrases punctuating his phrasing, very asymmetrical. To a certain extent, history might look kinder upon his contributions than those of the other WLP/GIA/FEL authors of the era.
    One of the more telling memories I have is that the charismatic movement in the mid 70's had a more pivotal role in the emergence of "sacro pop" than is generally acknowledged. I draw more of a gene line from that to the genre of the SLJs/Dameans/S.ThomasMore "schools."
  • We sometimes speak of 'good schmaltz'....
    Well, Diess is 'good sacro-pop'.
    I, back then when I had to do him, thought him a thorough bore and tiresomely maudlin.
    I was utterly baffled as to why anyone would sing the likes of this music at mass.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,827
    I totally agree with MJO. Various elements of genius gone amuck at that time. Diess is a misfit at best and was an opportunist to help in shaping the massive revolution of the liturgy. I tend to view him as the bugnini of liturgical music. Diess almost single handedly created a bridge from the old to the new in serious liturgical music composition. His music is chiseled like rough angular rocks and is devoid of the balance and grace and fine art of the chant. It may appear better than sacro pop on first hearing, but it was the vessel of trojan effort made for the invasion from within. It was more devious than the blatant sacro pop and launched an uprising with deadly stealth. His technique mirrors that of Bernsteins parody called "Mass", a musical sacrilege of vast proportion. Messiean was another similar genius of that era that re shaped liturgical music with diabolical results... a music that becomes the end of its own means which in no way gives service to the liturgy and to the Word. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9tjsKzhpSwE
  • We are not alone...
    Here is what Charles Burney (late XVIIIth century) had to say about hearing Claude Balbastre playing at vespers:

    'When the Magnificat was sung, he played likewise between each verse several minuets, fugues, imitations, and every other species of music, even to hunting pieces and jigs, without surprising or offending the congregation.'

    The 'hunting pieces' might well have been basses de trompette. The jigs were likely just that - spirited duos, an alternatim genre which typically utilised menuet, gavotte, bouree, or gigue rhythms, and which would have been registered either with cornet against trompette, or the tierce of the great against that of the positiv. Apparently the 'congregation' were as inured to this blatant secularity as our folk are to pop and entertainment styles. Raison, though, says that the dance forms common in alternatim 'suites' should be played more slowly out of respect 'for the sanctity of the place'. Too, chant was sung very slowly, and the more important the feast the more slowly was it sung.

    The well-travelled Burney shouldn't have been shocked, for an average service in the Church of England in his day would also have been far from a case study in reverence.
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  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    the charismatic movement in the mid 70's had a more pivotal role in the emergence of "sacro pop" than is generally acknowledged.


    Not for nothing did Fr. Skeris often warn against "the charos". Rome was aware of the dangers there, too.
  • So can anything be credited to the Holy Spirit?
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    The Holy Spirit says to one group "use scripture and chant"
    and says to another group "invent your own words and accompany it with guitars".

    The Holy Spirit is talking to us all the time.
    Who is listening to the Holy Spirit?
    How do we know?
  • Does Diess rhyme with geese or mice? Only ever seen it written down.
  • >> The Holy Spirit says to one group "use scripture and chant"
    and says to another group "invent your own words and accompany it with guitars".
    The Holy Spirit is talking to us all the time. Who is listening to the Holy Spirit? How do we know?


    um..... by the fruits? just sayin'.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Does Diess rhyme with geese or mice? Only ever seen it written down.

    Our confrere's spelling erred. And the "Americanized" pronunciation is "Dehss."
    image
    Deiss.JPG
    253 x 253 - 20K
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Personally I wonder if a significant amount of criticism regarding the aesthetics of sacred music purposefully avoids discussing the role and importance of "melody" in our deliberations of worthiness. That is also carried over to the marriage of melody with text in many cases as well.
    To me, a coherent and beautiful melody moves the human senses (herein conveniently constituted as mind, heart and soul) towards a deliberate reaction, which is then only amplified (or denigrated) by the suitability of a text. You can strip away all other musical elements from any select composition and the import of the melody will remain, in the case of an extraordinary one, stalwart and resolved. You can minimize a melody by stripping it of all notes and intervals, such as in "One Note Samba" and the mind will still supply the rest of the aural context. Works such as Kevin Allen's "Tantum ergo" or Tallis' "If ye love me" employ musical motives among voices equally, but if asked the mind will still hear and demonstrate a motive as a melody familiar to it.
    I do believe that at any given time in an era, some "composers" are essentially "dada-ists." Their ideas are exponentially stereotypical while being reductionist. Carey Landry comes to mind. But it wouldn't be a stretch to consider some of our choral "gods" currently in vogue part of that number as well.
    I'm not 100% sure how this all corresponds in the arena of sacred/profane. But it seems to me that merely dismissing so much stuff (ala the charismatic thingy) automatically as flotsam/jetsom of a fleet containing ocean liners, tramp steamers, submarines and junks will result with an ignorance of the elements that enable them to sail.
    I could be and most likely am quite wrong about this.
    Thanked by 1hilluminar
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Melo

    I think your thought needs to account for another distinction: between a melody that We (being a group) Join In versus a melody that We Listen To.

    Given the time of year, as a example of the latter may I offer into evidence the following chestnut:

    http://www.saxuet.qc.ca/TheSaxyPage/Realbook C/Setpember_song.jpg

    This is a ballad much admired by serious appreciators of the Great American Songbook. And it was written specifically for the trembling aging voice of Walter Huston (the a similar way that Stephen Sondheim wrote the world-weary "Send in The Clowns" for Glynis Johns).

    It's a great melody to listen to. It's a treacherously simple song, however, to sing together.

    On the other hand, plainsong and the great hymns tunes may not be a lovely to merely listen to - especially if sung solo** - but they have a gift to invite being joined in together, whether by monks, nuns or congregations?

    May I suggest that better sacred music partakes more of that quality?

    ** Example: the mashup tone used in Come To The Stable sounds much better to my ears, such as they are, sung by nuns than by the throaty alto balladeer (and I luvs me throaty alto balladeers of the Great American Songbook era):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgE784udUNU


    Unrelated PS bleat: Tom Conry's "Anthem" should go directly to Jail, without passing Go or collecting $200. And stay there.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Unrelated PS bleat: Tom Conry's "Anthem" should go directly to Jail, without passing Go or collecting $200. And stay there.

    Well, wasn't Conry the ultimate liturgical Dadaist? His model was freaking Kurt Weill.
    Thanked by 1Liam
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I think we're both onto something, Liam. But is there equivalence weighted between distinct melodies?
    Can't you hear the foundational first melody/motive of Pierluigi's "Sicut cervus...?"-
    Sicut cervus desiderat ad fontes aquarum

    Can that inspiration and clarity (which may be just an overthought in our modern context) be also found (objectively) in this?
    https://youtu.be/2M1lyUVKWYo

    (I can hear Ben Yanke gurgling "Yuck!")

    Can a fine melody launch a thousand ships?
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    Can a fine melody launch a thousand ships?

    The Church's-texts might launch a thousand melodies,
    but how sea-worthy are they?
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen melofluent
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    The Church's-texts might launch a thousand melodies,
    but how sea-worthy are they?

    Pretty good, perhaps? ... if they were sea-chanties. :)
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    a coherent and beautiful melody moves the human senses (herein conveniently constituted as mind, heart and soul) towards a deliberate reaction, which is then only amplified (or denigrated) by the suitability of a text.


    Ratzinger's opinion was--seemingly--the reverse. To him, Word was primary, and melos illuminated, or enfleshed, Word. And yes, he used the capital 'w' deliberately, referring to text of the Mass or the Bible.

    I cannot speak for any great composers, and am barely adequate to sing their stuff as part of a chorus--but I can tell you that when I have done so, I've always found that the music did, in fact, "illuminate" the text.
    Thanked by 2eft94530 melofluent