The hebdomadary can be anyone, in either EF or OF, though often the position is given to the highest-ranking cleric, which in a parish would be the pastor, curate, or deacon; in a convent, the abbess/prioress would be given the honour. If a layman (male or female) leads the Office everything is the same except the greeting Dominus vobiscum, &c., is omitted, and the blessing is changed, also there is no incense and no ceremonial. The Office is the prayer of the Church, everyone can participate, anyone can lead, but all according to law -- and there is no law preventing a group of laymen chanting the Office in the parish church without a cleric.

Jube, Domine,... as in individual recitation. Jube, domne,... is only used when the officiant is a priest or bishop.

so... we go from "Jube, domine, benedicere"
to "Jube domne, benedicere"
to... what ?

(domina? is there such a word as domna?)

Salieri is right, but in principle, anyway, gender not not change for women unless the ritual books specifically provide, even if this results in "incorrectly" gendered terms. Thus, women must say "Domine, non sum dignus" (if they make that response at all; there is no reason they should), but on the other hand when a woman dies the priest prays for "anima famulae tuae" in place of "anima famuli tui."

In choral recitation with a priest as officiant use "domne" (note lowercase), as one is addressing the priest directly.

In individual recitation or choral recitation with a layman (male or female) or non-priest religious as officiant use "Domine" (note capital), as one is addressing the Lord.

I suppose if one were Episcopalian and using the Latin Roman Office with a female priest, one would use "domina", or some variant thereof, because you are directly addressing the priest, but, obviously, that is not licit for Roman Catholics.

A woman could not lead the public recitation of Vespers in a church in the EF from the sanctuary, as it's not permitted to enter the sanctuary during public liturgy unless one is properly vested in clerical garb (ie: Cassock and Surplice), and women are not permitted to dress as clerics, especially in the EF.

AFAIK Jube, domne only occurs in Matins and Compline.

It's only at Matins and Compline, so nothing you need to worry about -- that was a side discussion.

Just do Vespers as usual, omitting Dominus vobiscum and it's response whenever it occurs.

I think I mustered up a Deacon in the end! Woot!

Col. Mustard in the library with the marble bust.

...

Jes, very interesting questions.

Here is my question. EF vespers at the end of a pilgrimage. Can a woman lead this? Does it have to be lead by a priest? My opinion would be yes (it can be led by a lay woman), but with caveats. If the officiant is a lay person of either sex, then I would think that the vespers would be a pious exercise but not liturgical.

If a priest has to celebrate Mass in another church during the public recitation of sung vespers... can a lay woman step up to the mark in absence of religious availability or male volunteers? Obviously not in the sanctuary. Probably just from a front pew. Is this scandalous? If intending this to be a pious exercise, without being in the sanctuary or vested, I wouldn't think that it would be scandalous or untoward for a lay woman to lead.

Just a clarification on "pious exercise" vs. "liturgy"... the location does not determine whether the event in question is liturgical or not, but the character of the hebdom. Priests and religious recite the Office in a wide variety of locations - those recitations are part of the body of the Liturgy of the Church because they are ministers authorized to pray on behalf of the Church. If the Office is prayed publicly by lay people, regardless of whether in a church or not, it would be a pious exercise but non-liturgical.

The closest approximation that I'm aware of in the EF to a Lessons and Carols service would be Christmas Matins. There are nine lessons in Christmas Matins. When we last sang Matins, the priest (versed in the rubrics) indicated that the final three lessons must always be sung by clerics / religious, although I'm not aware of such a rubric. The other lessons (the six in the first two nocturns) are certainly available to be sung by laity. (We had clerics sing the first three lessons as well, and we split the remaining three lessons among laity.)

Although in general it would be better to have a layman, vested in cassock and surplice, sing the lesson from the center of the sanctuary, I am not aware of a prohibition against a lay woman singing the lesson from outside the sanctuary, unvested.

If you are simply singing "carols" and "lessons" before an EF Mass, presumably there is no liturgical function and therefore no prohibition. Or as you mention, you could do an OF L&C service.

Jes, I don't know if you remember this thread, but in spite of the Council of Trent looking askance there is historical precedent for sword-wielding women being considered liturgically male from a legalistic angel. ;-)

Perhaps not from a canon, but certainly in numerous books on the Liturgy and also exemplified by the encyclical Mediator Dei (Pope Pius XII, November 20th, 1947): Part III-A. The Divine Office, section 142:

142. The divine office is the prayer of the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, offered to God in the name and on behalf of all Christians, when recited by priests and other ministers of the Church and by religious who are deputed by the Church for this.

Not an equivalency, but something in the vein... if I recite the prayers of Mass - all the prayers, following all the rubrics, using all the correct particulars - can it be said that I have "celebrated" Mass? No. A deacon in the seminary practices celebrating by offering what is commonly called a "dry Mass" - i.e. one which is non-liturgical and certainly non sacrificial in nature because the deacon - despite being ordained to the diaconate - lacks the character of the priesthood that enables him to offer Mass (among other things). My praying the prayers, the deacon running through the dry Mass - these presumably are pious exercises (depending on intention and reverence), but certainly not liturgical.

AF, I think we are saying essentially the same thing based on your last sentence...

The reference from Fortescue refers to the sung or solemn form of the Office. The original statement was broader in context. ANY priest, seminarian, consecrated religious, etc., who RECITES the Office privately is offering the Liturgy of the Church, not merely praying a private prayer. Conversely, laity, reciting the Divine Office on their own initiative whether as a group or individually, are performing a pious exercise, not celebrating the Liturgy, since they lack standing as authorized ministers.

I believe Fortescue, in referencing that "the celebrant is always a priest" is talking about the normal diocesan form. He is not referring to religious communities of nuns, for example, nor to extraordinary circumstances where a seminarian in major orders might fill in as hebdom.

I'm not quite sure I entirely agree with the statement "the stole is the mark of Holy Orders" at least in this context... the minor orders and major order both imprint a partial character of "Holy Orders" on the soul. Even a priest has just a partial character - it is not until one is consecrated bishop that one truly has the full character of the priesthood.

I think more correctly, the statement would be that the stole is a mark of the office, generally worn in a liturgical context. A subdeacon is ordained to major orders, but it is the deacon that is first distinguished by wearing the stole. Deacons, priests, and bishops all wear the stole differently to indicate their different offices.

However, whether or not the stole is worn for a particular liturgy is rubrical in nature. I believe that the stole is worn if the Blessed Sacrament is exposed, or if Benediction follows vespers, for example. This doesn't reflect on the nature of the hebdom per se.

Your final statement sums up the original point. The Office is liturgical when offered by a minister (cleric or religious) duly authorized. Laity wouldn't fit that description.

Fortescue is describing ceremonies, not writing about what constitutes "liturgy". A liturgy does, in fact, depend on the nature of the celebrant. This doesn't preclude laity from participating, just from offering. There are certain offices that can be performed by lay people - even, for example, as a stand-in for sub-diaconate minister at a Solemn High Mass.

That is not the same as suggesting that laity can offer the Liturgy on their own.

If it were not a liturgy, there would be no instruction for it in the GILOTH....

Thank you, Incardination, for the quote from Mediator Dei. I get the impression that the Church's position on this disciplinary question has altered with the issuance of the GILOTH, which does seem to include voluntary lay celebration of the LOTH as part of "the Church's office".

[27.] Gatherings of the laity - for prayer, apostolic work or any other reason - are encouraged to fulfill the Church's office [ut Ecclesiae officium expleant] by celebrating part of the Liturgy of the Hours.

But the nature of a prayer is still going to be formally the same in either Form, the things you are talking about are material.

Noel,

I'm afraid I'm not following your point. That women were eligible for membership in a musical society doesn't really address their specific role in an EF liturgical context (OP), nor the discussion about the need for appropriate ministers to lead an EF liturgy in order for it to be more than a pious exercise (the devolution of the OP).

Can you elucidate a bit further?

"Appropriate ministers" does not necessarily equate to "a cleric". Part of the earlier discussion (perhaps missed) was that religious (male or female) are "authorized ministers" in the EF.

Priests and religious recite the Office in a wide variety of locations - those recitations are part of the body of the Liturgy of the Church because they are ministers authorized to pray on behalf of the Church.

(emphasis added). Religious comprehensively includes male and female. I wouldn't think I would have to specify that.

The reference to Mediator Dei isn't an attempt to denigrate the role of women in music, any more than I read the OP to be an attempt to advocate liberal feminism. She was asking a legitimate question, and my answer included options for women leading vespers in the EF or singing lessons in the EF (the follow-on question). The quote from Mediator Dei applies to all laity, regardless of whether women or men. It isn't that laity can't have an active role in the liturgy, just whether or not they are authorized ministers in the EF to offer the liturgy entirely on their own.

I have a strong respect for women in a liturgical choir - just ask my choir members.

@Salieri

In choral recitation with a priest as officiant use "domne" (note lowercase), as one is addressing the priest directly.

Thanks for the clarification. I'd been wondering about the strange spelling of "domne".

Also, do you know where prime's

℣. Benedícite.
℟. Deus.

comes from?

"Deus" is in nominative case, so it's not completing a sentence with "Benedícite". Or is the sense that only God (not us) blesses?

Update: The Liturgical Request: “Iube, Domne, Benedicere” by Fr. David Friel helped. He cites:

• Joseph A. Jungmann, The Mass of the Roman Rite: Its Origins and Development (Missarum Sollemnia), trans. Francis Brunner, vol. 1 (New York: Benziger Brothers, 1951), 454 & 455n94:

The domnus here used is also customary in other cases to distinguish earthly masters from the heavenly Dominus.

Also, p. 309n75 answers my question:

the formula for asking a blessing: Benedicite! and receive the answer: Deus [sc. benedicat]. ["May God bless."]