>> at least one 'Rap' song also has a backing track of chant.
if you heard a THUD that was me hitting the floor. oh brother.

Chant is used as a backing track in a number of video games, sorry Computer games. I think "Halo" is one. Oh and at least one 'Rap' song also has a backing track of chant.

Indeed. It always makes me smile when people claim that chant is uniquely suited for liturgical use, because it can only ever be used for liturgy.

I suspect that culture plays a part too: most of the African and Eastern European youth who I have met (as a result of their parents migrating to Western European countries to find better work) prefer modern music. I think this is a reaction to rigid church music at home, for the EEs at least. The Western European kids are a more mixed bag: some of them just aren't involved in church at all, some are heavily into traditional liturgy and its attendant styles, some prefer more modern music.

(Note: on this side of the Atlantic, "traditional music" means jigs, reels and the the like, not chant.)

I rather think that if serious research were done it would reveal that youth mirror their parents' preferences (I purposefully said 'preferences', not the sacred word 'taste'). Parents do like for their children to be like them, and most will discourage any cultural diversion amongst their progeny. Too, studies have shown (I gleaned this from a seminar at Rice University several years ago) that most people prefer the music to which they listened in their adolescent years. This doesn't necessarily mean that youth actually prefer their parents' music (they very likely do not), but that they share their parents' rejection of 'classical' music and historic sacred music. In this they are as one - normally. Further, it takes immense character and integrity to buck peer standards (if you want to call them that). I think that, statistically, roughly five percent of the population are ardent in their love of 'classical' music. Others like it along with other stuff. Most, by far, reject it out of hand.

Occasionally, in a given church, or in a given group of youth, one will find an absolute love of 'classical' music and historic sacred music. Sometimes this is in spite of what is normative in their families, sometimes it reflects careful and loving parental nurture. If one is surrounded by youth who are in this category it would be easy, but mistaken, to conclude that there is a widespread movement amongst American youth toward the classical categories of music. There isn't. I think that 'our' numbers are increasing in certain places, but there is no groundswell of classical music buffdom amongst our youth.

Perhaps our forum member, Kyle, could weigh in here?

As far as chant (and probably other 'classical' categories) being featured in computer games and such: this does not signal a love of chant. It signals sacrilege. If not outright sacrilege, then profound ignorance and disrespect. In similar situations one may hear Mozart, or see da Vinci. This, too, is far from a signal that Mozart and da Vinci are ever thought of except in such profane circumstances - which thus represents a weird, declassee, one almost wants to say 'pornographic' rendering of what is sacred or of profound cultural significance.

As one of the "youth" generation (senior in high school) I will say that the preference for musical (and liturgical!) reform definitely moves in pockets. There are small, tight knit pockets of those who have an idea of what reform would entail, desperately want it, and act accordingly. There are also those who are sick of the aforementioned "bad singing" and/or "bad music" but have little to no idea how it can be changed for the better. There are also those who actively do not like the so-called "old" music and will make it their mission to propagate P&W in contrast to Chant and the NO in favor of the EF.

One factor is personal experience. I was introduced to the EF and almost instantly fell in love with it. I was attracted to it mainly at first because it was so different from what I was used to. I have a very good friend who was raised at what I call a P&W church and after she was invited to an EF Mass, loved it and wanted to go again, and again. (And we still go.)

This is not always the case. Another friend of similar background was introduced to it somewhere else and it now cannot stand it due to the fact that they did not "have a good experience." (It was a Low Mass, and we were nowhere near the altar.) Personal experience in the Old Liturgy and Music is a big deal for youth.

Another factor is the pastor. Our pastor, God bless him, is a wonderful priest who is extremely supportive of the EF and traditional music. Even at our youth camp we do chant introits and communions, often from the Liber, and we have had several EF Masses. As sort of an experiment one year, we did two Masses: an EF early in the morning, and a NO at the regular time. Nearly the entire camp went to the Traditional Mass, and we aren't just talking people like me who are already introduced to it. There were kids from all different backgrounds who all came together, illustrating that there is a desire, but it definitely is a factor having a pastor who supports and even encourages it.

As an organist who plays this traditional music every Sunday, I know I am not a great representative of my entire generation. However, the friends I have of all different sorts show that there is a desire for something more than what we are fed. There is a gap in the lives of current youth which must be filled. I do not think it will be filled by direct mandates from authorities. It will be filled slowly, over generations, by assimilation. Gradually, those without the flame will wick out. It is up to those of us who are entrusted to the flame of tradition in music and liturgy to keep it burning until alone we stand to once again light the world ablaze.

Thank you for your input everyone, and ajplafond, I especially loved reading your perspective. I very much wish I'd had your outlook when I was your age!

Yes, data is problematic. Too bad 538 hasn't done a podcast on Catholic Church music tastes in America. Well, yet, anyway. Perhaps if data is too much to ask, we'll-researched and presented articles would also be good. And yes, if I'm being transparent, I'm looking for things that will support my position.

I must say that my take on the generational issue is different from M. Jackson's above. From what I've seen and experienced, younger people desire quality and authenticity, and are generally allergic to older folks' ideas of what they "should" like. Many I've talked to seem to see a return to sacred liturgy as almost an act of rebellion. But I had an odd
path as it relates to Catholicism and church music, so I could be a weirdo.

And I had to chuckle about the definition of "traditional music" that seems to be so disagreed upon. I remember talking with a potential choir member a few years ago who exclaimed, "Oh, I LOVE traditional Catholic hymns! Be Not Afraid is one of my very favorites!"

Jackson,

Our Lord started with a Virgin Mother (a distinct minority) and 12 mostly-uneducated Galilleans. Don't give up on the minority of youth yet, or on the unpersuaded majority.

I do not know if there is a tendency among young people in general to appreciate Gregorian chant and the traditional liturgy, but what I do know is that, everywhere I went to mass in the extraordinary form, most people (85%-90% ) was between twenty and forty years of age and the children about 5%. Already in places where I attend mass in ordinary form, half of the people are over forty years of age and at least one third over fifty-five or sixty. In both, the total number of people was between 100 and 200.

This is an interesting discussion on this topic. In the Philippines, the growing number of young people becoming interested, or engaged in, or prefer traditional catholic music is steadily growing despite mounting oppositions both from religious and secular institutions. In my MA ethnomusicology thesis, I explored why young contemporary Filipino catholic would attend traditional latin mass or join choirs that sing latin or gregorian chant despite the threat of being labeled as fanatic, psychologically-imbalanced, resistant to Vatican II, and many other social threat. There are many cases in the Philippines where a choir is disbanded or prohibited from singing in the parish mass for the reason of singing one latin offertory or a communion. In the worse case scenario, an organist was fired from his teaching job when he found out to he a regular attendee of TLM. In my research however, I found that young people are looking for a more serious music that allows them to strengthen their identity as a catholic in a postmodern society where identity is always a problematic issue due to overwhelming possibility of options. Those who seem to be on the opposition side are people in their 40s. At this point, I am currently doing my PhD in Ethnomusicology dissertation to understand the role of gregorian chant and latin hymns in the postmodern performance of religiosity among contemporary filipino catholics.

theusiv

Everyone, especially those who weren't actually around in the immediate post-counciliar times, should read, re-read, and believe what theusiv has written above (and Kevin's experiences, too). What he and his colleagues are enduring is exactly what the American hierarchy, its priests, and its street music musicians dealt out to any who didn't get in line with their lock-step after the council. What theusiv and his friends live with right now is the real unmasked 'spirit of Vatican II' people. This is how they got (and continue to get) rid of Gregorian chant. This is how they (not the council, but they) purposefully made it a stranger to following generations.

Hi Chris,

Perhaps because of different cultural context. In the Philippines, as far as my study is concern, those who openly oppose traditional catholic music are in their 40s and the majority of them belong to the parish pastoral council or in parish organizations.

...belong to...

Isn't it a truism that, very often, those who have such an agenda to push are the most fervently desirous of getting themselves ensconced on committees and parish councils.

those who openly oppose traditional catholic music are in their 40s and the majority of them belong to the parish pastoral council or in parish organizations.

I have told parish council members that given their real value to the parish, the lot of them should be loaded onto a boat, taken to the middle of the river, and sunk. The only thing that gets the attention of those in charge, is threatening to cut off their funding. That actually works.

Parish pastoral councils are hardly a thing of the past. Finance councils are canonically required, and pastoral councils are canonically recommended (Canon 536) for ordinaries to consider implementing and, typically, then required by diocesan rule.

Don't steal our cherished bones of resentment to gnaw on like that!

Hildegard wrote:

I must say that my take on the generational issue is different from M. Jackson's above. From what I've seen and experienced, younger people desire quality and authenticity, and are generally allergic to older folks' ideas of what they "should" like. Many I've talked to seem to see a return to sacred liturgy as almost an act of rebellion.

I've been planning to come back to this thread an post something similar.

Psychological studies of adolescence say that it is a time of pushing boundaries and rebellion: of (trying out) rejecting what family and other adults say, and forming your own approach.

Teens usually reject whatever they see as the "old hat" culture that their parents like (music, art, etc). So if the parents were into P&W, it's no surprise that the kids gravitate to chant. And vice versa as applied to my generation:

Now - of course this is an on-average perspective. There will be counter examples -
especially among those with an education in formal music.

But there are many examples too: I remember being bored to tears by predictable metrical hymns with archaic language: the energy, rhythm and relevance of folk and contemporary liturgical music helped me to pray in a way that older stuff didn't. As I've grown older, wiser/sadder, and better musically educated, I've come to appreciate the older materials - and found that some things which previously prayed now seem trite. Secular choirs have taught me polyphonic masses (although I certainly haven't found God to be lurking in them, and I still find thundering organ music creepy/cultic).

And it is very hard to get meaningful data: to today's teenager, "Holy God we Praise Thy Name" and "Be Not Afraid" are of the same vintage - they've been around forever, so are both traditional hymns! And chant is that stuff which happens on certain gothic videos etc.

As regards to older people resisting a return to chant etc: I suspect that what they are really resisting is a return to a world where the spiritual elite (priests, maybe the choir) were engaged in liturgy, and ordinary people weren't (at best they said the rosary during Mass, at worst they slept). Do not assume that all was rosy in the pre-VII church.

Admittedly, we do not represent the norm (we are what is supposed to be 'normative', but isn't the 'norm'), but at Walsingham all our youth love the hymnody, Gregorian chant, choral music and organ music which is heard at all our masses. In the Holy House home-schooling program our several hundred children of all ages study Gregorian chant and a variety of instruments and classical music. Only men and boys serve in the Sanctuary, and one could not hope to find more reverent and respectful youth, boys and girls, anywhere.

I'm sure that there are 'pure Roman rite' parishes here and there, both OF and EF, where a similar regimen holds. We and they represent exceptional parishes and cathedrals which ought to be the universal norm.

This applies to theusiv's concerns only as an example of historic liturgy and music in a crucible in which it is cultivated by the entire spectrum of our Ordinariate's bishop, our priests, and the fervent love of our people and our youth, both at the cathedral and throughout our widely scattered (US and Canada) 'diocese'. Perhaps others similarly blessed would want to 'chime in' here.

As far as theusiv's suffering from accusations of being 'anti-Vatican II, psychologically-imbalanced and fanatic' - well, those who torture others with such cruel and un-Christ-like accusations would do well to look into the proverbial mirror. The supreme irony, of course, is that these tyrants are the very ones who are 'anti-Vatican II' - as is obvious to anyone who knows just what the council actually, really did say about music and liturgy. Someone should tell them so!

I suppose that if they could get away with it they would have you all sent off to a frozen far-away gulag for corrective indoctrination. That seems to be the sort of people they are.

And there are plenty of videos of young folk with non-traddie music

And there are plenty of videos of young folk with non-traddie music

Well, yes, but the original question was about young people and traddie music. Wouldn't the many many youtube videos count as data? The "St Louis Jesuit Superfan" already knows about all the young people and their non-traddie music.

How many thousands of videos need to be produced before they are data?

But studies and polls are about comparative data. Not individual data points, like anecdotes.

I think they would only be compelling to the already-persuaded. That didn't seem to be the purpose here.

OF Easter Vigil this year 15 people average age 80
EF Easter Mass this year 60 people average age 16 (way more children than adults)