Gloria punctuation

Richard Mix

I've been fretting about an otherwise fine English Gloria that orphans the sentence fragment "Lord God, Heavenly King, O God Almighty Father." The Solesmes editions use double bars with full stops to indicate antiphonal divisions and are not too much help; the text is usually given thus, perhaps implying laud, blessing, adoration and thanks go to the first person while petitions go to the second:

Laudámus te, benedícimus te, adorámus te, glorificámus te,
grátias ágimus tibi propter magnam glóriam tuam,
Dómine Deus, Rex cæléstis,
Deus Pater omnípotens.

Dómine Fili unigénite, Jesu Christe,
Dómine Deus, Agnus Dei, Fílius Patris,
qui tollis peccáta mundi, miserére nobis;
qui tollis peccáta mundi, súscipe deprecatiónem nostram.
Qui sedes ad déxteram Patris, miserére nobis.

Some composers follow this division with a break after omnipotens:
Gounod (Cecilia)

Others after unigenite Jesu Christe:
Schubert (G major)
Machault

Still others break after Filius Patris:
Ockeghem (Mi-mi)
Josquin (Pange lingua)
Tallis (Puer natus)
Dumont (or his printer)
Beethoven (in C)
Bruckner (e minor)

after Gloriam tuam:
Charpentier (Messe de minuit)
Bach (b minor)
Mozart (Coronation, c minor)
Rossini
Stravinsky

Bernstein & Martin keep their eyes straight ahead, while Schubert late masses sidestep more or less elegantly:
"..gratias agimus tibi. Gloria in excelsis...laudamus te. Domine Deus, agnus Dei..." (E-flat)
"glorificamus te, gloria in excelsis Deo, gloria Deo. Gratias agimus...omnipotens, gratias agimus. Domine Jesu Christe, gratias agimus..." (A-flat)

It's a small data set to conclude one is looking more at individual commonsense rather than distinct yet organic traditions, but I'm already leaning that way and ready for an arguement.

a_f_hawkins

I hear this text spoken in English a lot, and fret every time, because people run straight on over the full stop, without a pause any longer than between lines. I attribute this to the translation, since people expect "O God, almighty Father" to occur at the beginning of a sentence. :(

Liam

I strongly prefer a clear moment of repose on Father and a shift in music thereafter.

Richard Mix

The setting in question does change gears at "Lord Jesus Christ" and the quick and dirty fix would be to re-harmonize "for your great glory," with a deceptive cadence. But from a larger perspective I suppose I count myself of the party of Mozart & Stravinsky: "your great glory. [full stop]", with the paragraph break before "You take away" rather less desirable in English than it might be in Latin before Qui tollis.

IMSLP has, if not the bulk of the Graduale, the 1614 Medici Kyriale, unfortunately no more revealing than LU. I see Merbecke follows Cranmer's "thy great glory, O Lorde god heavenly king, God the father almightie." For what it's worth, Allein Gott in der Höhe breaks stanzas here as well. Is there a justification, either theological or philological, for splitting Domine Deus and Domine Filli?

Richard Mix

A couple of chant books:
Graduale patavienese 1511:

[f183]...propter gloriam tuam magnam.
Domine deus rex célestes deus pater omnipotens.
Domine fili unigenite iesu christe altissime.
Domine deus agnus dei filius patris.
Qui tollis...

[f184]...propter magnam tuam gloriam.
Domine deus rex célestes deus pater omnipotens.
Domine fili unigenite iesu christe.
Domine deus agnus dei filius patris.
Qui tollis...

St. Emmeram Gradual c. 1470

...propter magnum tuam gloriam domine deus rex célestes deus pater omnipotens domine fili unigenite iesu christe. [gasp]
Domine deus agnus dei filius patris qui tollis peccata mundi miserere nobis.
Qui tollis...

Richard Mix

A fifth animal for the menagerie: like Liszt, Haydn is remarkably consistent in articulating at "Qui tollis" but with secondary break before
"Gratias agimus" (1st Mariazeller, Nicholas, 2nd Mariazeller, St. Bernard, Theresa, Nelson, Creation, Harmonie)

or "Domine Deus" (Kettledrum)

or "Jesu Christe" (Little Organ)

Bach's missae breves place the bass aria after "Magnam Gloria tuam" in BWV 233 & 234. In BWV 235 & 236 the Bass sings "Gratias animus" followed by "Domine Fili" (235) or "Domine Deus Agnus Dei" (236).

Richard Mix

There's an interesting article by David Fallows,
The Last Agnus Dei: or: The Cyclic Mass, 1450–1600, as forme fixe (in Polyphone Messen im 15. und 16. Jahrhundert: Funktion, Kontext, Symbol
ed. Andrea Ammendola, Daniel Glowotz & Jurgen Heidrich)

Three distinct sections : first, the opening accolade, quoted from St Luke’s gospel; second, a paean of praise to God the Father; third, a much larger section, praising Christ and begging his intercession, starting with the words “Domine Fili unigenite, Jesu Christe”. In relation to this, Josef Jungmann [Missarum sollemnia. Eine genetische Erklärung der römischen Messe, 2 vols., 1Vienna 1948.] made the intriguing point that almost all musical settings ignore this division.

Making his case for the 'symphonic' Ordinary, he argues musical considerations trump others: the 3-fold patterns of "Domine Deus …Domini Fili … Domine Deus" & "Qui tollis … qui sedes" are

obviously a great generator of musical designs.

M. Jackson Osborn

I would have to agree that most, if not all, settings of Gloria take no account of its three-fold form: 1) Praise to/of the Father, 2) Litany to God the Son, and 3) essentially a Doxology in which the Holy Ghost gets honourable mention. I disagree that musical form should trump literary form. Music, after all, is said to be the 'handmaid of the word'. One will, though, search in vain for a mass setting that honours this principle - from the polyphonists to the classiicists, and especially to the romantics - not to mention the baroque masters. That, however, will not stop us from offering their masses at mass, relishing their beauty and trusting that God will do the same.

dad29

If 'music illuminates the text', then I think Bruckner did an excellent job in his Kyrie from the e minor. Britten was fantastic throughout his War Requiem. Ditto Beethoven's Solemnis. You can hear the Blessed Virgin singing Bach's Magnificat. Flor Peeters' ordinaries are exemplary, albeit less fantastic than the foregoing. The Verdi and Mozart Requiems, as with the Faure (and certainly the Durufle) are very good examples of 'illuminating the text.'

Thus, MJO, we disagree on 'in vain.'

a_f_hawkins

dad29 - The thread was about the break between the second and third sentences of the Gloria. Requiems are irrelevant to that. Beethoven has the soloist start the third before the other voices have finished the second.

dad29

Music, after all, is said to be the 'handmaid of the word'. One will, though, search in vain for a mass setting that honours this principle - from the polyphonists to the classiicists, and especially to the romantics - not to mention the baroque masters.

Sorry, Hawkins.......my response was to that direct quotation from MJO. I place it here so you can see it.

And yes, I know about Beethoven's quirks, which do not diminish his apprehension of the text and illumination thereof. However, it ain't a Mass for your basic parish, nor any other place.

Richard Mix

Here's part of Lambillotte on the necessity of good judgment :

…vouloir partout et toujours asservir la mélodie au discours, exiger entre la phrase musicale et la phase oratoire une concordance parfaite, c'est rendre impraticable l'application de la musique à la poésie; c'est détruire, c'est anéantir toute espèce de rhythme et de mélodie.

bhcordova

Punctuation has to be a judgement call. The original Latin had no punctuation nor spaces between the words.

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