Gloria punctuation
  • I've been fretting about an otherwise fine English Gloria that orphans the sentence fragment "Lord God, Heavenly King, O God Almighty Father." The Solesmes editions use double bars with full stops to indicate antiphonal divisions and are not too much help; the text is usually given thus, perhaps implying laud, blessing, adoration and thanks go to the first person while petitions go to the second:

    Laudámus te, benedícimus te, adorámus te, glorificámus te,
    grátias ágimus tibi propter magnam glóriam tuam,
    Dómine Deus, Rex cæléstis,
    Deus Pater omnípotens.

    Dómine Fili unigénite, Jesu Christe,
    Dómine Deus, Agnus Dei, Fílius Patris,
    qui tollis peccáta mundi, miserére nobis;
    qui tollis peccáta mundi, súscipe deprecatiónem nostram.
    Qui sedes ad déxteram Patris, miserére nobis.


    Some composers follow this division with a break after omnipotens:
    Gounod (Cecilia)

    Others after unigenite Jesu Christe:
    Schubert (G major)
    Machault

    Still others break after Filius Patris:
    Ockeghem (Mi-mi)
    Josquin (Pange lingua)
    Tallis (Puer natus)
    Dumont (or his printer)
    Beethoven (in C)
    Bruckner (e minor)

    after Gloriam tuam:
    Charpentier (Messe de minuit)
    Bach (b minor)
    Mozart (Coronation, c minor)
    Rossini
    Stravinsky

    Bernstein & Martin keep their eyes straight ahead, while Schubert late masses sidestep more or less elegantly:
    "..gratias agimus tibi. Gloria in excelsis...laudamus te. Domine Deus, agnus Dei..." (E-flat)
    "glorificamus te, gloria in excelsis Deo, gloria Deo. Gratias agimus...omnipotens, gratias agimus. Domine Jesu Christe, gratias agimus..." (A-flat)

    It's a small data set to conclude one is looking more at individual commonsense rather than distinct yet organic traditions, but I'm already leaning that way and ready for an arguement.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • I hear this text spoken in English a lot, and fret every time, because people run straight on over the full stop, without a pause any longer than between lines. I attribute this to the translation, since people expect "O God, almighty Father" to occur at the beginning of a sentence. :(
    Thanked by 1Liam
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,200
    I strongly prefer a clear moment of repose on Father and a shift in music thereafter.
  • The setting in question does change gears at "Lord Jesus Christ" and the quick and dirty fix would be to re-harmonize "for your great glory," with a deceptive cadence. But from a larger perspective I suppose I count myself of the party of Mozart & Stravinsky: "your great glory. [full stop]", with the paragraph break before "You take away" rather less desirable in English than it might be in Latin before Qui tollis.

    IMSLP has, if not the bulk of the Graduale, the 1614 Medici Kyriale, unfortunately no more revealing than LU. I see Merbecke follows Cranmer's "thy great glory, O Lorde god heavenly king, God the father almightie." For what it's worth, Allein Gott in der Höhe breaks stanzas here as well. Is there a justification, either theological or philological, for splitting Domine Deus and Domine Filli?
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • A couple of chant books:
    Graduale patavienese 1511:
    [f183]...propter gloriam tuam magnam.
    Domine deus rex célestes deus pater omnipotens.
    Domine fili unigenite iesu christe altissime.
    Domine deus agnus dei filius patris.
    Qui tollis...

    [f184]...propter magnam tuam gloriam.
    Domine deus rex célestes deus pater omnipotens.
    Domine fili unigenite iesu christe.
    Domine deus agnus dei filius patris.
    Qui tollis...


    St. Emmeram Gradual c. 1470
    ...propter magnum tuam gloriam domine deus rex célestes deus pater omnipotens domine fili unigenite iesu christe. [gasp]
    Domine deus agnus dei filius patris qui tollis peccata mundi miserere nobis.
    Qui tollis...
  • A fifth animal for the menagerie: like Liszt, Haydn is remarkably consistent in articulating at "Qui tollis" but with secondary break before
    "Gratias agimus" (1st Mariazeller, Nicholas, 2nd Mariazeller, St. Bernard, Theresa, Nelson, Creation, Harmonie)

    or "Domine Deus" (Kettledrum)

    or "Jesu Christe" (Little Organ)


    Bach's missae breves place the bass aria after "Magnam Gloria tuam" in BWV 233 & 234. In BWV 235 & 236 the Bass sings "Gratias animus" followed by "Domine Fili" (235) or "Domine Deus Agnus Dei" (236).

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