The Two Will Never Become One... The NO and the VO
  • stulte
    Posts: 168
    Good!
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Given that this is Chris Ferrara and that is Robert Cardinal Sarah, and accepting that I haven't read the interview, is it even remotely possible that the good Cardinal is being Socratic, in the sense of letting the proponents of His Holiness' stated position come to the inescapable conclusion that "the reform is irreversible" is, quite simply untenable?

    Since I'm reading Bugnini's book just now, I'm persuaded that whatever good ideas got mixed in with the project of liturgical reform didn't come from the Consilium. In that sense, Ferrara is quite correct. Since the vernacular (per se) isn't evil, and since it is (theoretically) possible to reform the liturgy (the whole thing, including the Divine Office), one has to demonstrate exactly which untenable propositions will have to be abandoned, so as to retain whatever truth is mixed in with the profound errors.

    Here's one error, which I won't quote exactly: the Mass should be in the vernacular, exclusively, because the addressee should be able to understand what is being said. [The person addressed in the Mass is, of course, God, but Bugnini accepts that the whole of the liturgy is addressed to Man. ]
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 1,081
    I am sure that when the Francis told us, "the reform is irreversible" he was speaking the truth, but perhaps not in the way he intended. We cannot turn back the clock, the reform or deform has taken place, but where are the green shoots the vocations coming from the reform?
    For the reform to continue it must have priests willing to use it, it must bring vocations, if it fails to do this and it is obvious that the reform is not very attractive, it will join the other failures that have emanated from the Vatican over the last century.
  • The person addressed in the Mass is, of course, God


    Yes, I remember from early school days, asking:
    Child: Why does the priest have his back to us?
    Parent: He's not talking to you.
    Thanked by 2melofluent Jenny
  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 323
    More vitriol, more diatribes. I'm rather tired of it, and fail to see how it's helpful in any way beyond attempting to stoke the anger stroke the ego of the writers of such articles.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 8,787
    It seems discussions over the merits of old vs. new liturgy tend to land on the supply or lack of vocations. Does the number of priests you have really matter if Catholics are leaving the church in droves?
    Thanked by 1Vilyanor
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 7,700
    Vilyanor

    Who is stoking?.. the furnace of consternation among those who hold to the magesterium and the unchanging truth of the Gospel and the tradition that has been handed down to us?

    We cannot be silent or we will be judged complicit by God on the last day.

    We do not want to create vitriol. Are the Dubai presented to create vitriol? No, it is for the salvation of souls who could easily be deceived and fall into error and possibly eternal damnation. Our unpleasant warnings could mean the difference for a few or even many souls. And our charge is this: "Go and preach the Gospel to all nations."

    We cannot be silent in the face of falsehood or confusion. Let the light of Christ shine out.
  • >> Does the number of priests you have really matter if Catholics are leaving the church in droves?

    my opinion: yes!
    From Dom Chautard's, The Soul of the Apostolate:
    “If the priest is a saint (the saying goes) the people will be fervent; if the priest is fervent, the people will be pious; if the priest is pious, the people will at least be decent. But if the priest is only decent, the people will be godless. The spiritual generation is always one degree less intense in its life than those who beget it in Christ."
    Thanked by 1francis
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 8,787
    I hate to say it, but the church is losing it. It is mute politically, riddled with the same political correctness that's in the secular society, has lost the culture wars, and out of touch with its members. Houston, we have a problem.
  • "My Immaculate Heart will triumph"
    Thanked by 2francis Vilyanor
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 8,787
    "My Immaculate Heart will triumph"


    No doubt, but who knows when? Like the long run, in the long run we are all dead.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 7,700
    As far as MIHWT, it is probably not that far away according to the signs of the times. Can YOU read them?
  • >> in the long run we are all dead.

    OK, yes but ... don't get out the razorblades. Think about the early Christians, whose last sight in this world was of a lion or similar leaping at them. We may not understand the times we live in; or prefer them; but we do know that nothing happens without God's express will, or His permission. And that our Lord is with us all days.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 7,700
    You were all made for this time, this era of great tribulation. Embrace your cross, and walk forward in confidence. The Victory will be that of Jesus and Mary, and the Church will not be defeated. You may suffer martyrdom, but that is a temporal discomfort compared to the glory that awaits us.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 8,787
    Glory, shmory. I would rather take the cross and beat them all with it.

    Thanked by 2Vilyanor tomjaw
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 7,700
    lol
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,039
    I would rather take the cross and beat them all with it.

    Now that's what I call a Church Militant!
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,349
    Martel, Sobieski, John of Austria......not bad company, CharlesW
  • and also St Teresa of Avila, who took up a large crucifix by the foot and took a swing at the devil who was bothering her.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 1,081
    St. Margaret
    image
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • St. Dunstan!

    image
  • In response to the article by Fr. Z that Francis posted above:

    I was at a Marriage in Christ seminar that was put on by my parish. It was the final week, and basically, the entire meeting was a luncheon, where we could all sit and be "communal." The lady I was sitting across from remarked that it was good to see young people such as my wife and me attending parish events and began a discussion of how we could get more young people to get involved. I observed that the first thing to do is get young people going to Mass in the first place. I then pointed out that I see a lot of young people, young couples with families, and children at the TLM. Her jaw couldn't hit the floor hard enough. She was just so flabbergasted that ANYONE would still actually CHOOSE to attend, "that old thing." In the interest of diplomacy, I didn't enumerate the various deficiencies that I perceive in the atmosphere of the NO, particularly at that parish, that may be the cause of the exodus. This is just one of many "reactionary" responses that I have seen not just to the very true statement that young people (20 and 30 somethings as the article defines) are increasingly attending the TLM, but to even the mere suggestion of including anything traditional in the regular parish Masses.
  • "You say you respect the traditional way of doing things? Around here, the Spirit of Vatican Two [head bowed in reverence] is traditional. We've done things this way since I was a little child. My grandmother had On Eagle's Wings at her funeral. If it was traditional enough for her, it should be good enough for you!"
  • Clerget's experience just above proves that, as or more often than not, unfortunate music regimens are not things thought up or demanded by their 'target' groups, but things that someone else has decided for them that they want, need, desire, or demand. Absent these preposterous folk (who love nothing more than to project their own ignorance onto others), the 'target groups' would likely never have dreamed of what they are said to want, need, desire, or demand.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 8,787
    I find it interesting that the facilitators, committee chairs, and advocates for everything novel and "contemporary," are often women. The men have already left. I have found with my own students who have reached high school age, the first thing the boys do is drop mass. I hate to say it, but the church and liturgy have become so feminized, guys don't want much to do with it. My 2 cents and ymmv.
  • There is much truth to Charles' point about feminisation. It's fairly predictable that in the average parish, outside of father himself, most or all of the staff will be women. It's bad enough that, to a degree, 'church' or 'religion' has sort of traditionally seemed to be more the concern of women (its 'male dominatedness' notwithstanding): it's even worse now that almost everything in our society is being systematically feminised, including men themselves.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • The men have already left.


    As Heenan so aptly put it, they're smoking outside during mass.

    It's bad enough that, to a degree, 'church' or 'religion' has sort of traditionally seemed to be more the concern of women (its 'male dominatedness' notwithstanding)


    There's something similar in (of all things) the world of Schlock Cinema. American International Pictures, the fellows behind I Was a Teenage Werewolf, had a strategy in their publicity department called the "Peter Pan Syndrome":

    a) a younger child will watch anything an older child will watch;
    b) an older child will not watch anything a younger child will watch;
    c) a girl will watch anything a boy will watch
    d) a boy will not watch anything a girl will watch;
    therefore:
    to catch your greatest audience you zero in on the 19-year-old male.

    The powers-that-be in our church don't realize that the same holds true for us.

    a) women will more likely attend a Mass aimed towards men;
    b) men will more likely NOT attend a Mass aimed towards women;
    c) when given a choice, most men prefer traditional liturgy;
    d) when given a choice, most religious youth prefer traditional liturgy (and find young, 'hip' liturgy to be condescending)

    My main point being - pace Christian feminism, the more 'inclusive' audience will be found at traditional services. Our 'target audience' (if you'll allow the flippancy) should be the 19-year-old altar server.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 8,787

    As Heenan so aptly put it, they're smoking outside during mass.


    Not anymore, although I do remember having a smoke with father in the late sixties. Glad I don't do that these days.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 7,700
    Absent these preposterous folk
    find a TLM or wear "earplugs" and pray the rosary
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 7,700
    in light of the new MP, thought you might consider my observant title and the comments... was a couple of weeks early posting this one

    perhaps the NO should have an entirely new version of the words of consecration
  • Ah,but then the modernists would have given away their true motivation: the destructionof of the faith. Catholics at the time would have rejected their reforms as too radical. They had to be more subtle than that in order to convince Catholics (and themselves) that their changes were valid and for the good of the Church, or they would have been rejected outright.
  • Isn't that true of all 'reformist' types? They have no love of the institutions which they wish to transform into their own images. Rather than having the honesty to leave and form their own institutions, they connive and burrow like termites into the structures of their target institutions, changing them with patient-but-determined ferocity into what they had never been nor dreamed of being. Finally, after all is said and done, a new generation matures and thinks that the renovated institution as they have experienced it is quite normal and that nothing is wrong.

    This happened in the Anglican church, in which the 'reformers' and feministic sexist revolutionaries screeched for decades that 'the Holy Spirit was not being heard' - until after they had accomplished their mission, they then joyfully exuded that 'the Holy Spirit has finally been heard'. For all these types God's will is whatever they happen to desire - they are never wrong and whatever opposes them is not on the side of God and the Holy Spirit. Only they know what God wants, which is, curiously, always identical to what they want.

    The same types that have all but destroyed the Anglican church are like termites in the Catholic Church and western universities as well. They know no boundaries and have as their goal the ultimate destruction of Western Civilisation - a goal which they seem perilously close to achieving.
    _______________________________________

    None of this is new. It is a continuation, an unfolding of the seeds inherent in Renaissance humanism, the Reformation, the French, American, and Russian revolutions, the Enlightenment, world communism such as survives in China, the Pelagianism inherent in the XIX. century social gospel, the relativism of today - all of them events in history which are continuous throughout history. We tend to think that these events and movements are things that have occurred and are over. They are not. Like Christianity itself, they are historical processes locked in a life and death struggle with Western Civilisation and the Church.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 7,700
    well that has never happened in the Catholic Church until Vatican Council II. and the gates of hell Will not prevail against it.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 7,700
    ...and the way i see it, I believe God will purify His church once again and bring it back to the straight and narrow. It's just another major heresey not unlike the time of the Arian crisis. However, the refinement process, this time, may require a large dose of fire.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 8,787
    Pope Francis is running true to form - creating a mess for his successors to clean up.
  • I hate to say it, but the church and liturgy have become so feminized, guys don't want much to do with it


    Feminized? Feminized?

    Geez looking at some pictures of the vestments worn in the old rite, l don't think I've ever seen as much lace in a Victoria's Secret catalogue ;)

    Which is why, even "back in the day", especially back in the day

    As Heenan so aptly put it, they're smoking outside during mass.


    I doubt your average joe longshoreman, plumber or carpenter found such displays, um, virile, and was probably highly suspicious of men engaging in them. And since most men smoked in those days...

    I'm being a bit tongue-in-cheek here. I do think the problem may be lack of priestly supervision of yes, largely female liturgical committees. I do cringe every time I see another corny little "rite" inserted into the liturgy, where no such rite is specified by the GIRM, by such committees. It seems that during the Offertory, anything goes. Perhaps Father doesn't want to offend...

    "Liturgical Committees" are one reason, perhaps the main reason, I prefer to do my worshipping in an all-male Benedictine abbey that carries out the Ordinary Form Mass with all the attention to detail a Solesmes Congregation house can muster. Well, that, and I love chant.

    Plus, they never wear lace ;)

    Actually the Benedictine women near Montreal are fine too, they even do an all-Latin Mass, not just propers and ordinary, twice a week. They just do it an octave higher! But then like most Benedictine monks or nuns, they are obedient.

    Ora
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 8,787
    Benedictines usually put some effort into liturgy and do it well.

    I think you are correct about the liturgy committees. They are often nutty.

    I have been to liturgies where feminine priests made the whole liturgy look like a drag show. It wasn't caused by vestments.

    Lace was a marker and sign of nobility, since most of the upper church officials in times past were of noble birth. What purpose it serves now, I don't know. It's all mass produced in China and is no longer a sign of wealth or status.
  • Adam Wood mentioned that instead of "feminized" a more correct term would be "infantilized."
    Thanked by 3CharlesW a_f_hawkins JL

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