The Shroud of Turin
  • Ken of Sarum
    Posts: 406
    Do you believe that the Shroud of Turin is authentic? I Do!
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,164
    I don't know if it is authentic or not, but in my opinion it doesn't matter either way. If authentic, it's nice to have, if not, we are a religion of faith.
    Thanked by 3M. Jackson Osborn PaxMelodious Elmar
  • wingletwinglet
    Posts: 41
    Yes, I have come to accept it. It's a solid part of tradition, and numerous scientific investigations have been done. I have heard of at least one blind study, and at least one done by researchers hoping to disprove the miracle. There is a good documentary out there; maybe someone else recalls the name of it.

    The Shroud, like the tilma of Guadalupe, in my opinion is an excellent inspiration to greater devotion. @bhcordova of course believing it is not necessary for salvation, but since its authenticity is so well supported by evidence, why not use it for reflection and teaching? I myself tend to be very skeptical of things like private revelations and other miracle-based devotions, but the Shroud is in a class of its own. You should read up on it!
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    Signs and wonders - our Lord didn't exactly commend them as needful in place of faith - or even as bolsterers of faith.

    Is the shroud authentic?
    I really don't know and am not convinced pro or con.
    My faith doesn't hang on such things.
    It would, though, be rather thrilling if we knew absolutely that the shroud was The True Shroud.
    Perhaps there is a divine purpose in us not having personal items of our Lord.

    I do think that if someone's faith is increased even by unquestionably authentic miracles, his or her faith is misplaced.
    Thanked by 3Jani Elmar bhcordova
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,311
    MJO, I mean, yeah, some people only look for those, but I don’t think that your view is correct here.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,818
    It's real. I had an inside connection with the official examining team back decades ago. I stayed at the home of Dr Stevenson. He had just written this book. If you don't believe it's real, this will convince you otherwise.

    https://www.amazon.com/Verdict-Shroud-Kenneth-Stevenson/dp/086683723X

    Of course, real or not, it is not a matter of faith. But it sure challenges those who only believe in science.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    I think it is real and am convinced it spent time in Constantinople before the Crusades. However, I can still believe in Christianity without it, or apparitions, or other artifacts. Now if someone claims to have a feather from St. Michael, that I don't believe. ;-)
  • francis
    Posts: 10,818
    Charles. Don't be silly. Angels don't have feathers. They have that atomic light thingy in the middle of their chest.
    IMG_1768.JPG
    1438 x 757 - 130K
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    But a feather would be a first class relic. LOL.
  • Ken of Sarum
    Posts: 406
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UwzLGqEnFA

    I was very fortunate to have spent a day with Barry Schwartz as he lectured at a church school. It was inspiring and amazingly moving to be with him and listen to what he imparted.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    I agree with Charles -
    A feather would be far more precious than 'that atomic light thingy'.
  • KARU27
    Posts: 184
    I don't know - - has anyone else here read about the fact that the proportions are off, for an actual human? I believe the issue is that the arms as pictured on the Shroud are bizarrely long. I recall reading something that the proportions make it appear that the Shroud was perhaps made using a statue.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    I have also read that the shroud indicates a "Y" shaped cross rather than the traditional Roman cross. Long arms? I hadn't heard that before, but someone's weight being held up by arms could, I suppose, stretch them somewhat.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    Have any of you read "Murder at Golgotha"?
    It's fascinating, and uses both the Shroud and historical reference, and a bit of scripture to make the Man and the scene more "real." I highly recommend it. Fast, easy read.

    Caveat, though: I disagree with the some of the introductory opinion bits about Mary, etc., but the rest is very interesting.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,818
    introductory opinion bits about Mary
    ?
  • Ken of Sarum
    Posts: 406
    Psalm 22: 14 - I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax; it has melted within me.

    From all the sources that I have read, seen and heard, the majority of scientists, physicians and researchers have stated that in their opinion, the image is proportionally correct in light of certain parameters.

    Why should a Christian be interested in and study this artifact? The bible instructs us to question and test. To me, I find it, with all its proofs and facts, to be a bulwark to faith and a stumbling block to humanistic reasoning. Two facts of the shroud seem particularly interesting to me personally. First, it is 3D encoded - no other pictorial image, before the 20th century, known to mankind is 3D encoded. Second, the DNA of the blood is the exact same as the documented Sudarium of Oviedo of the 6th century AND the blood on both has ONLY the female chromosomes!
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn Drake
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    @Francis, mostly to do with her perpetual virginity (and, therefore, anything that might stem from the disbelief of such).
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    read about the fact that the proportions are off


    I read the reports by the Forensic pathologist and the anatomist, that said that all was as they would expect.

    The weave is also rather special.

    The other very interesting point was the flowers and plants impressed into the fabric, the Israeli expert saw them and immediately said these are the exactly the plants that would be found in the area and at that time of year...

    As far as I can tell all the scientific experts agree it is beyond scientific explanation, is of the correct age, etc. Of course the atheists, that ran the Carbon dating are the only voices against (I believe they tested fabric from the repairs).
  • KARU27
    Posts: 184
    "There are other proportional problems in the shroud image, some obvious and others subtle. Concerning the obvious, one lower arm is much shorter—by about a third—than the other. This remarkably gross distortion cannot be attributed to differing postures and angles of the arms in their repose. You can check this out by trying to mimic the differential with your own arms, being careful to position your hands and arms exactly as in the image, preferably while lying on a hard surface as you imitate a corpse. In a successful attempt to replicate the shroud image using means available at the time of its manufacture, and using an actual human body, the lower arms are, not surprisingly, equal in length. (Read more: "Scientists reproduce 'fake' Shroud of Turin to prove cloth is man-made")"
  • KARU27
    Posts: 184
    "Other features of the shroud figure confirm that it is not real. If the cloth were actually draped upon a 3-D human face, then the facial image would be grossly distorted laterally when flattened out—this obvious defect is the initial reason this artist rejected the authenticity of the object upon first viewing it. The top of the head should also have been recorded if the cloth enclosed the head. These problems in translating a 3-D head into a viewer friendly 2-D image are why the 2009 replication noted above utilized a bas-relief mask (which like the Turin image is too small). The hair drops vertically as if the man were standing rather than falling back from the head on the front and back images as expected of a corpse."
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    "The hair drops vertically as if the man were standing rather than..."

    Hair spray can do something similar, as does (I'd assume) hours of blood.

    "...imitate a corpse"

    That's somewhat difficult to do. It's amazing how much more pain there is while alive and trying to manipulate your joints into something that a corpse wouldn't mentally and physically oppose. That, and most of us haven't been hanging by our arms, which may have been wrapped up and around a large plank of wood and nailed in place to make sure that we can't try to physically oppose such manipulation, either.
    Thanked by 2a_f_hawkins tomjaw
  • rob
    Posts: 148
    But, any music one might know which would references the shroud, liturgically or devotionally?
  • francis
    Posts: 10,818
    i composed one for the holy face back in the nineties
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    references the shroud, liturgically or devotionally


    Feast of the Holy Winding sheet, Feast of the Five wounds, found in the Antiphonale Romanum 1912 ed.

    It was very popular in the Middle Ages to have Mass and Offices referencing various parts of the Passion of OLJC, some of these mention the Shroud/burial cloths. I have found another Office for the 5 wounds in the Analecta Hymnica.

    Translations of the Hymns of the Shroud can be found in "Hymns & Poems, Caswall, 1908. This can be found (and read) on the Internet archive.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    Interesting, as the Friday after the Lent II was a non-universal commemoration of the Holy Shroud, and a week later was a non-universal commemoration of the Five Wounds - were the propers the same?
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    From the 1924 GR... Collects, Epistle and Gospel checked in my 1910 Hand Missal.

    Sacratissimae Sindonis DNJC Feria IV post Dom II
    INT. Humiliavit
    GRAD. Improperium
    TRACT. Vere languores
    OFF. Ingressus
    COM. Joseph autem

    Sacror Quinque vulnerum DNJC Feria IV post Dom. III
    Propers from the Votive Mass of the Passion
    INT. Humiliavit
    GRAD. Improperium
    TRACT. Vere languores
    OFF. Insurrexerunt
    COM. Foderunt

    So Propers the same but different Epistle, Gospel, Collects, OFF. and COM.

    These Feasts were used in England up to the reforms of 1911-14, they seemed to have died out at an unknown date and they are not found in the Hand Missals published in the 1930's. I believe we in England and Wales could use these Propers on the days of Lent they formerly were attached. We have Sung the 5 Wounds Mass a few times...
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Ken of Sarum
    Posts: 406
    Scientist have recently discovered that the body wrapped by the shroud MUST have been floating in mid-air with the shroud surrounding but NOT touching the body; as if shaped in an elongated "C" at the exactly moment the image was created. Furthermore, dust and dirt on the shroud where the heels were, is an unique and particular limestone that comes ONLY from the Damascus Gate at Jerusalem. The majority of the pollens on the shroud and flowers shown on the shroud come ONLY from Jerusalem. The unique 3 in 1 herringbone weave of the shroud can be traced to Syria and was extremely expensive; perhaps explaining why it was purchased by Joseph of Arimathia - the uncle of Holy Mary.

    Of course the shroud is not needed for one's faith. However, it is an enormously strong witness if one objectively and honestly considered ALL of its remarkable points of facts!
    Thanked by 3CharlesW CHGiffen tomjaw
  • Elmar
    Posts: 506
    ... the body wrapped by the shroud MUST have been floating in mid-air ... unique and particular limestone that comes ONLY from the Damascus Gate at Jerusalem ...

    Is this some kind of joke? Like scientists checking how far 'real believers' will go in taking for fact anything that is uttered by a PhD of any kind and that fits their preconception ...
    Thanked by 1KARU27
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    Wikipedia says:
    In its current form, the gate was built in 1537 under the rule of Suleiman the Magnificent, the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire.[1] Beneath the current gate, the remains of an earlier gate can be seen, dating back to at least the time of the Roman Emperor Hadrian in the 2nd century CE
    I thought the Romans ended the Jewish-Roman wars by razing Jerusalem, and that would include demolishing most walls and gates.
    Thanked by 1KARU27
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,933
    i composed one for the holy face back in the nineties


    It is one of your best pieces, if I may say so, Francis. Very ethereal.
  • Ken of Sarum
    Posts: 406
    Elmar, if you had done indepth investigation on the shroud, you would have understood that there are no depression points of the image; in other words, the image shows no signs where the weight of the corpus pressed onto the cloth and neither are there any depression points on the front side of the shroud. If Christ can ascend into the air infront of his followers after the resurrection, then why not at the moment of resurrection?

    a_f_hawkins - there has been much scientific study on different mineralogical and architectural aspects of strata in and around Jerusalem; especially on significant areas. Since so much study has been made in these historic areas and detailed records kept, it wouldn't be difficult to cross-match types of stone and earth from differing historical time periods. Geologists do this as a matter of normal evaluation. Therefore, forensically, it is possible to determine soil types and their points of locality.

    I am on one side, amazed and surprised at the seemingly lack of faith and disbelieve in the miraculousness and historiscity of the Shroud; especially by professed Christians. We say we believe in GOD, the miracles HE has performed, the wonders beyond our understandings, sprits and the resurrection of Jesus. Yet, when presented with the very presence and overwhelming facts about this unique and singular artifact, we act as if we are the children of doubting Thomas. Then again, upon reflection, I guess I shouldn't be surprised for we walk by faith and not by sight. CREDO . . .
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    I sincerely appreciate and concur with Ken of Sarum's premise about faith in relation to the miracles in our lives and recounted in Holy Writ and other history. Unlike some, though, I have always been ambivalent about some of them. My belief in God and his mercy, and his acts in history are independent, though, of these 'signs and wonders'. I don't 'know' that, even after all the conflicting evidence is in from all the conflicting scholars and scientists (whatever a 'scientist' is!), that the shroud is genuine. For me this is a plus - for my faith isn't dependent one iota on it. And, there are other events of miracles, even biblical ones, which have been called into question in the light of various disciplines of study. It has been asserted that there is no archaelological evidence of Pharaoh's host in the Red Sea, that the Jews were not slaves in Aegypt, but 'guest workers'. Likewise, there is said to be no archaeological evident of Herod's slaughter of the Innocents. Other dicrepancies exist. My faith is not shaken in the least because of them. It is in the hearts, minds, body-temples, souls, and works of his faithful that God is known, proven, evidenced. We do not need signs and wonders. They are nice. If they are genuine, that is a cause for wonderment and joy - but not for use as a 'proof text'. 'By their works shall ye know them' - and, as 'they' and their works are known, so is God known.

    There is, too, a 'down side' to miracles and relics throughout Christian history, whereby quite a commercial enterprise they have been for those monastic houses and other places which have had the good fortune to have them in their care. Their presence, genuine or not, has too often made their 'caretaker' institutions wealthy. So, EVEN if they are genuine, I would be more inclined not to get excited over them - certainly not to contribute to the coffers and mendacity of their owners.

    Whilst on the subject, one is astounded and angered over the 'money-changers' in our cathedrals and holy places who make a thriving business out of selling souvenirs and such. I can always imagine Jesus going 'round with a whip and excoriating them, turning their tables over, for making a 'den of thieves' out of his Father's house. It is disgusting. I never buy souvenirs of anything. My souvenirs are the memories which dwell vivdly in my mind.
    Thanked by 4a_f_hawkins CHGiffen tomjaw Elmar
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    selling souvenirs and such


    This reminds me... do all dioceses have a specific Catholic gift shop through which churches within their diocese must purchase goods to be sold in their "book stores"?

    Just curious, as it seems like it really makes a business out of it, instead of just allowing a church to find a best price or such with which to stock their " necessities."
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen
  • Ken of Sarum
    Posts: 406
    If they are genuine, that is a cause for wonderment and joy - but not for use as a 'proof text'. 'By their works shall ye know them' - and, as 'they' and their works are known, so is God known.


    And if the Shroud of Turin is genuine, then by His work in this shroud, shall we not know in part GOD?

    Personally, the vast universe I have seen from images from the Hubble telescope and other pictures of the heavens that declare the glory of GOD and His handiwork and nature here on earth, are no more or less miraculous than the shroud. Whether its the shroud, the universe, the smallest matters of life - or the soul and body of a baby - its ALL a miraculous wonderment and joy of the mind, heart and spirit of absolute and eternally living LOVE; the shroud being one more piece of GOD's statement - "I AM THAT I AM."

    I have become a child in GOD's shop of souveniers, increasingly overwhelmed by wonderment and joy by His gifts given freely. I love you so very much my heavenly Father.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    Many thanks, Ken.
    In the perspective which you have lain out one can but concur wholly, unequivocally, and without reserve to your premises and notions.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    Cooze -
    Fleecers as they are, I have never heard of a requirement that all of a certain thing had to be purchased from a diocesan cathedral or other gift shop. This would carry the money changers to new exalted heights of mendacity. If I knew of such a rule I would go out of my way to get what I wanted anywhere else.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    @CharlesW , you're in Kville, aren't you? I've heard that most Parish gift shop items have to be bought from that Catholic Bookstore in Knoxville ..?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    We don't have a gift shop in our parish and, as far as I know, there are no plans to start one. The Paraclete is the shop at the cathedral. It became part of the diocese in 2012 when the founders gave it to the diocese. The people there are nice and always helpful. I have bought things from them, but also buy most things online from other companies.
  • Elmar
    Posts: 506
    Elmar, if you had done indepth investigation on the shroud, you would have understood that there are no depression points of the image; in other words, the image shows no signs where the weight of the corpus pressed onto the cloth and neither are there any depression points on the front side of the shroud. If Christ can ascend into the air infront of his followers after the resurrection, then why not at the moment of resurrection?

    Ken, I haven't done any investigation at all. My only (genuine) question was: do you know whether what "scientists have recently discovered" - as you reported - was meant as a serious scientific hypothesis ... or maybe a hoax by some atheists making fun of what 'believers' are inclined to believe?
  • Ken of Sarum
    Posts: 406
    I hope some of these help.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAEUbGoYzr8

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhFh5DPmJLo&t=563s

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSLyc89Rtcg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0wsbxJGuus&t=37s
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-FWBCQJ7GY&t=19s
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ka7In1SWF0

    and here in particular is the scientific discussion on what I earlier referred to in the elevation of the corpus.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbl4EmoH_jg
    Thanked by 1Elmar
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