Order of Worship/Programme - Dedication of Raleigh Diocese Cathedral
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,981
    More and more, those differences are morphing into a digital universe.

    In all seriousness, if I were buying an organ, I probably would not look at EP instruments because of the significant re-leathering costs down the line. Those costs are high enough that I have seen pipe instruments replaced by electronics rather than pay the rebuild prices.

    Tracker: I have played Wilhelm organs which really are a dream to play. Also, trackers by a N.E. U.S firm that are clunky and ridiculously hard to play. Would depend on manufacturer, placement, feasibility of design for the building, and practicality for my own unique situation.

    I love the big and majestic Austin sound and have heard the big Austin in D.C. Also following the rebuild of one in Houston. However, those universal air chests are not cheap to replace, either, even though they are certainly reliable while they last.

    Electric action seems to have come a long way. Wicks is still around and I recently heard a Kegg, which is an innovative electric design. I was impressed by the Kegg.

    What is the difference between Haugen and Palestrina?



    Both are similar in that many of their contemporaries hated both of them and thought they had ruined church music.



    Who cares about anyone else...


    I don't. As said by W.C. Fields — 'I am free of all prejudice. I hate everyone equally. '


  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700

    Is the Fisk going to have an EP console? How disapointing


    This sort of information is not difficult to find in 2017.

    It's mechanical action with some innovations:
    http://www.cbfisk.com/sites/default/files/instruments/specifications/147_spec.pdf
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,981
    There is a myth out there about those trackers not needing as much maintenance. True, they wont need re-leathering in 30 years, although they have to be rebuilt eventually, too. My Schantz gets two service visits a year, mostly for tuning. The tracker at a church a few blocks away has the serviceman in at least once a month or more. Keys come loose and hang suspended in mid air, once the pedals quit playing, the swell pedal came loose, and on and on. In terms of service, that tracker gets far more than my Schantz. Service people don't give you a discount because you have a tracker.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,981

    It's mechanical action with some innovations


    Sounds similar to how they built the one at Oberlin.
  • mmeladirectress
    Posts: 1,100
    >>> This was the dedication of the most significant new-build cathedral in the country - perhaps for a generation (can anyone think of something bigger recently?).

    bigger? the (shudder) Mahony cathedral in Los Angeles, 2002 ?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,981
    We are building a new cathedral in Knoxville, TN. Not the size of the taj Mahony, but pretty significant for our mostly Protestant area.

    https://dioknox.org/the-cathedral-of-the-most-sacred-heart-of-jesus-construction/
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Charles,


    no one else in the building knows the difference


    I'm reminded of a scene in A Man for All Seasons. Richard Rich asks, "If I were [a good teacher], who would know"?

    Thomas More's answer included GOD. Not a bad audience, that.

    We musicians in God's service should never consciously offer him less than the best we can do. Best instrument, best skill on whatever instrument we have, and so forth. Sure, the priest pays your salary, but God keeps control of the benefits package. Can you lift the veil of cynicism?
    Thanked by 3M. Jackson Osborn francis CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,981
    I think what constitutes the best instrument is very much open to question. God has not stated a preference, and I will not be surprised if he never does. Being a musician in God's service is a matter of taking what you have and doing the best you can do with it. A good organist can make good music on what he has.

    After years in this business, and it is a business, I have concluded that individual organists can be very good and decent people. The profession as a whole is nuts. It gets obsessed with one thing or another and goes completely off the deep end. There are a few organs in my town that were built in the "8 foot craze" when organists decided that voice pitch falls in the 8' rank range so those should dominate in the organ. When I was a teen, the first question out of many organist's mouth when viewing an instrument was, "is the Great unenclosed." Another obsession where anyone who had an enclosed Great had an inferior instrument and no enlightened organist would ever buy one of those. Remember the rattling flute obsession during the sixties? In search of chiff the builders built flutes that rattled. The tracker craze is no different. It's today's obsession. What comes next? Probably something equally goofy.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Charles,

    There are many varieties of beauty, just as there are many beautiful women. I would put forward an argument that advanced simulacra are, still, just simulacra, and not actual organs at all. An exquisitely beautiful painting is still a painting. To borrow a notion from Michel de Foucauld: "Ceci n'est pas une pipe."
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,981
    Chris, I think God is more appreciative of your intent and the quality of your work than on what the church provides for you. Granted, I have a decent pipe instrument at church with a digital organ at home for practice. But having a digital at church doesn't lessen God's appreciation of your work. If it is all the church provides for you, take it and do the best work you are capable of.
  • mmeladirectress
    Posts: 1,100
    It may have been Tomas de Victoria who said that the best instrument to be used in the Church is the human voice. :-)
    Thanked by 2melofluent CHGiffen
  • francis
    Posts: 10,827
    chant, polyphony, organ. that is what the church upholds and promotes. and I would uphold and promote them in that order... and I do not condone adding anything else to the three
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Charles,

    If one is stuck with a bus-station of a Church, one must make do until a better option presents itself, so I guess I grant your point about intent. I currently use a simulacrum because the organ restoration project is in the 4th year of an 18-month project. In fairness, the project turned out to be much more difficult to complete than originally perceived (something about a 110 year old instrument which hasn't been receiving regular maintenance). I look forward to being able to use it when it is finally in working condition.

    NEVERTHELESS, my contention was that we should never choose the lesser when the greater is possible. All the way back in Genesis, God demonstrated His disapproval of second-best offerings, offered selfishly.

  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,981
    I currently use a simulacrum because the organ restoration project is in the 4th year of an 18-month project. In fairness, the project turned out to be much more difficult to complete than originally perceived (something about a 110 year old instrument which hasn't been receiving regular maintenance). I


    Those projects can take longer than expected. I worked with an organ builder when I was much younger, so when my own church organ needed rebuilding, I knew exactly what was involved and stayed on top of it. It was finished ahead of time, but involved more of my planning time than the actual rebuild. An organ allowed to deteriorate can cost more in time and budget than planned. 110 years old? What kind is it? That would qualify as an historic instrument. Very interested in those. OHS member here.
  • lhouston58
    Posts: 52
    I tried to post the video of the dedication Mass from Raleigh Cathedral, but it didn't turn up. Here it is again:

    http://dioceseofraleigh.org/news/watch-dedication-holy-name-jesus-cathedral

    For now, I'm keeping my comments about the new Knoxville Cathedral to myself.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,981

    For now, I'm keeping my comments about the new Knoxville Cathedral to myself.


    Aren't we all. It looks like a construction site. I have seen the drawings of what it is supposed to look like, but as we all know, not the same as seeing the finished project. I haven't been there in years, other than to drive by it, and have no real reason to ever go there.

    I did send them a donation in the early planning stages to get them to go away and leave me alone.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    110 years old? What kind is it? That would qualify as an historic instrument. Very interested in those. OHS member here


    It's a 2-manual Kimball, with a flat pedal board. I can put you in contact with the man doing the work, if you like.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,981
    It's a 2-manual Kimball, with a flat pedal board. I can put you in contact with the man doing the work, if you like.


    Glad to see an older instrument saved. Those Kimballs were very well built. Thanks, but I doubt I could be of any help to him at a distance. Have you talked with OHS and sought donations for the project? They have a captive audience and could be helpful if you need to advertise for funds.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Charles,

    How does one contact the OHS?
  • WGS
    Posts: 300
    http://www.organsociety.org/
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,981
    As I am sure you already know, OHS is the Organ Historical Society. Saving historic instruments is their objective. The Organ Clearing House that refurbishes and relocates used instruments grew out of OHS, if my memory serves me correctly. Good people who do great work.
  • lhouston58
    Posts: 52
    I was curious about the two-manual Kimball myself. Where is it located?

    As for Knoxville Cathedral, going by the photos I've seen and what I know, I don't think the architects provided enough space for a pipe organ. Worse yet, there's a huge rose window in the organ/choir loft and the clergy will not allow any pipe organ, no matter how nice it is, to obstruct the view. Have a look at the photos. The organ loft is photo 5:

    http://www.knoxnews.com/story/life/2017/05/26/building-landmark-new-catholic-cathedral-sacred-space/341886001/

    It's still possible to get a decent-sized instrument up there, but it will be quite the challenge. A brand new pipe organ is out of the question, but there are so many wonderful second-hand instruments to be had, thanks to the Organ Clearing House. But getting around that rose window is a stickler. A split case is a possible solution, but it would block access to the elevator. My suggestion to the organ builder was to incorporate the window with the organ. The only example of this I've ever seen is the Woehl organ in the Friedenskirche, Potsdam:

    http://www.evkirchepotsdam.de/gemeinden/frieden/kirchenmusik/unsere-orgeln/woehl-orgel

    A simplified version of this case might work, but the cathedral authorities might not go for the design, or for the expense.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,981
    Rumor is they are getting a Casavant tracker and I have heard 60 ranks or so. However, I don't have a lot of confidence in the people associated with this. They are nice enough folks, but... I will just leave it at that. The politics there have been quite nasty in the past and I hope they have reformed somewhat. I stay as far away from that place as possible and am quite happy in my smaller, but orthodox and traditional parish.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    There is no dearth of beautiful organ cases designed around rose windows. The historic one at the Fugger chapel at Augsburg is one of the most iconic. This is no obstacle all.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,981
    You see them built around windows quite often in the AGO magazine.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    It looks like the designers assumed a spit case, you observe the right end of this longitudinal section:

    https://mccreryarchitects.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/interior-elevation-finals.jpg?w=3320

    That's a deep loft, covering the narthex entirely.

    In the video, at the 1:22 mark, there's no organ in the loft yet....

    https://vimeo.com/128397624

    As for me, count me skeptical about the acoustical prudence of deep domes on drums (as opposed to, say, shallower Byzantine domes or, better yet, Catalan/sail vaults), for the conciliar liturgy, especially where the dome is not over the sanctuary.....

    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • lhouston58
    Posts: 52
    They were looking at a Casavant, but not a tracker. It was the one from First United Methodist Church, Cleveland, Ohio. but there's just no room for it in the loft - AND it would hide the window:

    http://database.organsociety.org/OrganDetails.php?OrganID=23772

    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,981
    Interesting. As I mentioned, I stay away from the cathedral. I am busy at my own parish most of the time, and really can't go anywhere else. And as I also mentioned, I have no desire to get involved with music there with either the place or the people. The Clearing House has some nice instruments. If my Schantz disappears in the middle of the night, that is where I would look for a replacement.
  • lhouston58
    Posts: 52
    We suggested the possibility of installing a transept organ in the Cathedral if only to have something up and playing in time for the dedication. Andover has a nice Hook & Hastings they're trying to relocate and we thought the Cathedral would be a good home for it. I'm sorry to report to you that the Andover Hook is a tracker:

    http://www.andoverorgan.com/organs.rest.267.php

    At any rate, they didn't seem interested, and the matter was dropped. It's really too bad considering what a fine instrument it is.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,981
    Andover makes good instruments and they do a good job on rebuilds. There is one in a Lutheran church that I like. I am not sure it has combination action since the last time I heard it the organist was surrounded by an army of registrants. Yeah, I am exaggerating, there were only two, but they would get on my nerves if I were playing.

    I have heard some of the Hook & Hastings instruments, and I know the earlier ones were trackers - all organs were trackers back then. Those instruments had a lovely sound as did the Pilchers and others of the time period.

    BTW, I fully support preservation of historic instruments. I am not in favor of copying more primitive technology on new instruments. New instruments are - new instruments. It seems pointless to try to make them into something they are not.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Andover recently did a marvelous rebuild (opus R-345, 2011) of a 3-manual Hook & Hastings organ at Christ Episcopal Church in Charlottesville, VA. The organ surrounds a lovely stained glass window.

    http://www.christchurchcville.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/organ-for-web-publishing.pdf
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,981
    At any rate, they didn't seem interested, and the matter was dropped. It's really too bad considering what a fine instrument it is.


    I am hearing, and it's rumor that I can't verify, that the cathedral is running over budget and the costs are mounting. That kind of thing often means compromises and cuts elsewhere, such as organs, etc. Who knows? They could possibly end up with the Allen they now have - at least, initially.
  • lhouston58
    Posts: 52
    I imagine they shot their wad on brand new stained glass windows when they could have gotten all they needed for free from the Archdiocese of Boston Stained Glass Project:

    http://www.lynhoveystudio.com/archdiocese-of-boston/

    Such an exquisite collection, for free. Raleigh Cathedral got their windows from the Archdiocese of Philadelphia.

    I don't know about the diocesan budget, but I imagine the Cathedral will just move the Allen to the new building and use it for a while.
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