Speedy GonBachez
  • ajplafond
    Posts: 25
    Hello--
    I am by no means an accomplished organist, having only played for the past three years I have been in high school. I play for my parish and I am trying to expand my horizons beyond hymns, psalm tones, simple postludes and preludes, etc. I recently was listening to/trying to play a certain piece by Bach, the BWV 578 Fugue in Gmoll. There is a recording here.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PhRa3REdozw

    My question is: is the speed in the recording actually the speed at which Bach himself intended it to be played? Did the mechanisms of the tracker organs of the time support such a speed?

    Thanks
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,981
    just a thought - maybe each of them has one or more family members who are impacted by the watered down NO


    In a nutshell, no one knows. Organists have been actually fighting over such for several hundred years. I noticed that link is a Ton Koopman recording. Koopman is pretty highly regarded so you could imitate much worse. If you don't like his tempo, play it differently.
    Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz
  • MarkS
    Posts: 282
    It's certainly in the accepted range of current performance tempos, and a good tracker could certainly manage a tempo like this. (I play it maybe a click slower). This is certainly music that wants to really move forward. Played slowly, this music can sound ponderous, rather than the charming and really cheerful and happy piece it is! And, to paraphrase Toscanini, I got that straight from Bach himself—from the score! Or something like that.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,981
    FWIW, we know from contemporary accounts that Bach played his organ music very slowly. Since his other keyboard playing was not the same, perhaps it was the instruments of the time. If you want to get a bunch of organists engaged in endless disputation, mention Bach. LOL.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    You shouldn't feel daunted by Koopman's rather dashing tempo. While not faulting him, one should feel quite at ease playing this piece at a slower pace which tries, nonetheless, to capture the spirited quality of Koopman's playing.

    Most important in fugal performance is the communication of line and the interplay of voices, which Koopman has sacrificed for a degree of admirable virtuosity. To communicate line and polyphonic relationships one must be aware of them and display them consciously in one's playing. Play the piece at a tempo at which you can master such communication with your listeners. Of course, all would agree that the acoustic in which you play this or any organ work will be a determining factor in tempo. Acoustics permitting, you could play this piece at nearly half Koopman's tempo and do it justice.

    This is the first piece I ever learnt on the organ.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Marc Cerisier
    Posts: 537
    Play to the room. The acoustic should be your guide in picking which end of the tempo spectrum you end up on. I've played that piece rather quickly in dry rooms and more slowly in wet. This one, especially, can get muddy.
    Thanked by 2CCooze eft94530
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    *I'm not an organist.
    In college, the percussion ensemble (of which I was a member) often played this in a marimba ensemble. It wasn't quite this quick, but (even/especially for mallets) not much slower.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,981
    I have concluded no matter how you play Bach, someone will complain you did it wrong. So, I play French works and only play Bach rarely for special requests. Much happier that way. ;-)
    Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz
  • MarkS
    Posts: 282
    For anyone wishing to get way deeper into the weeds on this—this is representative of much current scholarship:

    http://www.idoabrav.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/02-ABRAVAYA-On-Bachs-Rhythm-and-Tempo.pdf

    And, agreed that acoustics absolutely always play a role in organ tempos.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    ...played this in a.....

    Um, what is a marimba!?
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Here you are ... TWO of them ... playing Bach!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGpnjzfFQRA
    Thanked by 2CharlesW JosquinGetEnough
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415

    How ever can I thank you?

    (Actually, I heard [not listened to, but heard] something called a 'marimba' once.
    Burmese Gamelin music is much more genuine.)
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,981
    Reminds me that when I was in college, I played the Bach G Minor Fantasy and Fugue on a pipe organ. Next on the program was the Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody No. 2 played on a marimba. Pretty interesting contrast.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    What do the marimba and the saxophone have in common?

    They are both (in my book) non-instruments.
    They don't exist - at least not in serious musicdom.

    (And you can add Olivier Messiaen's ondes martinot to the list.)
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    I have concluded no matter how you play Bach, someone will complain you did it wrong.


    That's certainly true. The main issue, which does not only apply to Bach and other Baroque composers, is the question of tempo when one is not indicated. One could simply take whichever tempo makes the music sound best, or whichever one is most comfortable for their current level of technique, or base it off of some other arbitrary criteria. However, in Baroque music where improvisation was valued, the tempo could be a negotiable aspect.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,799
    Is it possible we're talking about (ahem) taste?
    They don't exist - at least not in serious musicdom.

    I heard that exact phrase about Mendelssohn from the organist emeritus when I was at my Lutheran post. A lot of purple faces whenever I used the tremblement fort, too.

    no matter how you play Bach, someone will complain

    Hmfp. How is it for you being known as the organist who does't like JSB, then?
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    ...(ahem) taste?

    Taste?
    Oh, absolutely not.
    It is objective Truth.

    And! you, um, used the tremblement fort .... and... you are admitting it in broad daylight!!!!???
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,799
    What can I say, except that I have a certain reputation to keep up.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,981

    Hmfp. How is it for you being known as the organist who does't like JSB, then?


    I can play him quite well. I just often choose not to.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    ...quite well.

    Well... at least Charles' distaste for Bach is an educated one.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,981
    But the devil in me shows up often, Jackson. I LOVE playing things in Bach that drive the baroque purists nuts. ;-)
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
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