Propers AND Hymns? Propers OR Hymns?
  • It is possible that the visiting priest isn't opposed to the propers, that he actually believes that one is supposed to do only a hymn or the proper. Such is the implication of his words as you relate them. Was this just a casual remark, or did he seem ill disposed toward the proper per se?

    For a visiting priest, he seems, intentionally or not, to be the cause of far more liturgical furor in your parish than a visitor should. Far more! This is a matter solely for you and your pastor.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    But at all costs I want to avoid causing any hoopla that would prematurely end the experiment
    Absolutely! almost any change is anathema to some of the congregation, you do not want outsiders causing additional trouble. [Even if the visiting priest were to prefer the proper to a hymn]
    Please keep us posted.
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,933
    So, here's a question - my old parish is just starting to use Fr. Weber's propers (God be praised) but the cantrix has started chanting them before the announcements at the beginning of mass. Shouldn't she do this right before the processional hymn? Thoughts?
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    I did that when first introducing propers--sang them as a prelude.

    It's not optimal, but a possible stepping stone.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Should be part of the procession. The announcements interrupt and confuse the meaning of the introit.

    Maybe they could use some of @Kathy hymn tune introits during the procession to introduce the idea of a proper text at the beginning of mass, and then eventually replace it with the chant.

    We did that at my previous parish - about 6 months with familiar hymn tunes with proper text (or a poetic reinterpretation, as such), with psalm tone verses in between each repetition of the hymn. Once the concept sets into the minds of parishioners that the mass of that day has a particular text to be sung, switching to a chanted introit during the procession is not such a jarring experience. They'll know what is happening and why.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    It's not optimal, but a possible stepping stone.


    RANT BEGINS HERE

    No stepping stones. Was it stepping stones in 1970 when the vernacular was introduced? Was it stepping stones when ancient chant was replaced by banal, saccharine songs, some of which can barely be called hymns? Was it stepping stones when altar rails were ripped from sanctuaries, armies of EMHCs began to distribute Communion, girls appeared as altar servers, new churches designed to resemble amphitheaters instead of temples? I think not.

    RANT ENDS HERE
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    Actually, yes many stepping stones in places:

    Was it stepping stones in 1970 when the vernacular was introduced?

    -Started in 1965. Even before the Council in places.

    Was it stepping stones when ancient chant was replaced by banal, saccharine songs, some of which can barely be called hymns?

    -Well, those kinds of hymns long predate the Council, and many many places never had that chant in a meaningful way, sadly.

    Was it stepping stones when altar rails were ripped from sanctuaries,

    -Typically, that came after precursors....

    armies of EMHCs began to distribute Communion

    -definitely appeared gradually until approved - especially not until after reception of the Precious Blood became permitted.

    girls appeared as altar servers,

    -Ditto; part of this was the decline of the parochial school census....

    new churches designed to resemble amphitheaters instead of temples?

    -The baleful architectural trends definitely started before the Council, as economic concessions rationalized by the Great Depression and war era and then pressures to expand schools in the post-war boom. (First started with reduction of plans to simpler, cookie-cutter designs, then went down from there. Lots of new suburban parishes didn't even bother with building a church for a couple of decades at least.)


    PS: And the changes in canon law in 1983 have given parishioners in more densely populated areas an upper hand: they can parish-shop now if they don't like what's going on in their parishes.
    Thanked by 1a_f_hawkins
  • In spite of Liam's qualifiers, Clerget is spot on in his rant about stepping stones. The near-universal experience of these things was literally 'here to day and gone tomorrow'.

    Only the congenitally or purposefully blind could fail to notice that a calculated program of cultural destruction and amnesia was carried out, and is ongoing by the 'old guard' in our seminaries, universities, clerics, and influential 'educators'. And, they're not done yet.

    Now, after forty years and counting of chaos, we are cautioned to make our changes slowly and to provide stepping stones (which too often end up being permanent).

    And, it all rather depends on what changes are being made, doesn't it!! If it is a change from chant, good choral music, etc., to pop-rock-faux folk stuff the change can't come quick enough and few will have the temerity to squeak. But if it's the other way around, change cannot be made slowly enough - if at all - and the squeaking will be loud.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    I have used Introits as preludes before the entrance hymns. We have no announcements until the end of the mass. The other Propers can be fitted into the mass. However, those hymns are not going anywhere but are here to stay.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    part of this was the decline of the parochial school census


    I'll call........ahhhh......fiddlesticks on that one. Did the school census decline to zero boys? Zero? Really???
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    Softly softly catchee monkey!
    That's how the vandals subverted Sacrosanctum concilium, and that's how to recover the vision. Of course that's no good if you disagree with the vision. John Cardinal Heenan:
    "At home it is not only women and children but also fathers of families and young men who come regularly to mass. If we were to offer them the kind of ceremony we saw yesterday in the Sistine Chapel we would soon be left with a congregation mostly of women and children."
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Whereas most parishes now have congregations where men are underrepresented, and that's totally different.
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    But, @chonak, a recent commentator on NLM says-
    Sorry but Orthodoxy which has not had post Vatican II Novus Ordo liturgics to contend is experiencing the same decline in Baby Boomer and younger church attendance
    Thanked by 1BrianSennello
  • ViolaViola
    Posts: 411
    We were advised to sing a hymn during the procession, as many verses as necessary, then start the introit as the procession moves onto the altar. The reasoning behind that was that the introit is part of the Mass but the entrance hymn isn't.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    GIRM 46-50 clearly show 'the' Entrance Chant accompanies the procession and continues through veneration of the altar until celebrant arrives at the chair. This works in a space as large as Westminster Cathedral, both at 10:30 with choir singing from GR, and at 5:30 with a cantor and the people as GS suggests (either in English or Latin). There is no liturgical need for a hymn, unless as Walsingham Cathedral TX does you have a Sarum style procession with stations. (You do need to give the people both words and music.) OTOH Westminster uses just a hymn at noon, 6 verses in the example I have from 23rd April, which shows the duration required.
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago