Ictus missing in credos?

Hugh

Any Solesmes expert:

Graduale Rom p. 770 Credo 1 "Qui ex Patre Filioque procedit". Is there an vertical episema missing at the "li" of "Filioque"? Also at the corresponding syllables in Credos 2 (GR p. 773) 4 (p. 778) & 5 (p. 781) ? Same situation in the LU.

Or perhaps I've misunderstood the 2/3 measure rules?

Glad for any advice.

janetgorbitz

I'm no expert, but they don't mark all ictus locations... only when there might be a question or when they want to have it grouped in a particular way. You are right -- there is an understood ictus at the 'li' of 'filioque'. They marked the ictus on the qui and again on the 'tre' to let us know the first grouping is a grouping of three, but the rest of the phrase is understood to be all groupings of two (if I am reading it correctly). It looks like a very nice example of off-accent ictus marking to me.

Hugh

Thanks Janet - that makes sense.

HH

miacoyne

Janet , you are really doing your HW on ictus. Scott should be very proud. ;-)
I've gotten a bit lazy on ictus, so I spent yesterday afternoon marking all the ictus we need for our schola. (and also mark Arsis and Thesis.)

janetgorbitz

You should see my PBC with all the markings since Chant Intensive... ictus markings, circled groups of three, "S" for salicus "L" for unmarked liquescent neumes and a. and t. for each arsis and thesis... I am sure my book would be very confusing for anyone other than me.

miacoyne

What's this one, where? ""L" for unmarked liquescent neumes"

(Do you want to sell your book? Of course with markings ;-)

janetgorbitz

See the Sanctus VIII in the PBC... Apparently, the Meinrad font has no capability for liquescent climacus neumes on 1) 3rd "Sanctus" on 1st line... 2) 1st "excelsis" on bottom line of page 53, and 3) last "excelsis" -- last word of chant p. 54. Compare with your Graduale Romanum on page 740... you can see the difference.

Couldn't sell it... it is a bit bent out of shape from having psalm tone sheets inserted, Gloria Patri tones, expanded versions of various chant hymns (thank you Richard Rice)... it has all my notes about dactyls, spondees, modes, extra rules for ictus assignment.... on and on... does yours look similar?

Hugh

Janet, I looked more closely (before going to sleep) and noticed there are counter-instances. Check this: just before "filioque" in Credo 1 there's "vivificantem", in which the marking of the ictus on "fi" is superfluous, in that an ictus can't be on the syllables on either side. Then there's "Patre et Filio", just after, where the ictus on Fi is obligatory, given those on "tre" and the first not of "o". etc...

So the mystery deepens! Thoughts welcome.

janetgorbitz

Hi Hugh,

Yes, it was nice of them to mark those locations where we should also have been able to figure it out on our own (ex. vivificantem)... but nothing that would seem to contradict the rules that we would expect... if you have a Parish Book of Chant, check out the rules given on page 175... before I knew them I was never sure if I was doing it correctly... it gave me an inordinate amount of joy to learn them at the Chant Intensive workshop last summer (my little engineer's brain loves rules). It is my understanding that the rules in the PBC are derived from a book on chant by Gajard.

As to why they particularly opted to mark extra spots in some words and not in others... I could not venture a guess!

miacoyne

there's "Patre et Filio", just after, where the ictus on Fi is obligatory

Hugh, why do you think it's obligatory?

Ragueneau

I love this forum, because people can say things like "Apparently, the Meinrad font has no capability for liquescent climacus neumes" and not be looked at funny.

Hugh

Thanks, Janet for that.

Miacoyne, thanks. Perhaps if you're going to the big chant colloquium this year you could ask around about this for me, & report any substantive findings? I'd be grateful.

Obligatory in the sense that the ictus can't be at 'et', the syllable to the left, because that's only one away from the ictused (?) 'tre' of Patre, and it can't be at 'li', the syllable to the right, because that's only one away from the ictused 'li' of Filio. So it can only be on the 'F'i of Filio. Of course, if these icti (??) on either side were moved to other syllables, it would be new ball game. But with them in place, there's only one possibility.

Hope that's clear as mud!

Hugh

Sorry, Miacoyne, that first request was meant to be for Janet. However, you're most welcome to do the same!

Hugh

Janet you're right about Meinrad lacking some neumes. However, I just made some alterations/ created new neumes with a free font program (TypeTool 3) as per attached sheet. I mostly usurped the spots of duplicate neumes in Meinrad B. If you're wondering, I broadened the episemas because, printed out, the original St Meinrad episema I've found is very hard to pick up in a poorly lit church. Now it's easily detectable, without being over the top.

miacoyne

Thanks, Hugh for your explanation. When I ask questions or post comments in this forum, I do that hoping others might benefit too, whether they are right or wrong, because we are all learning. When you said, "'et', the syllable to the left," did you mean "ex"? not "et" "which is left to 'Patre?" Then "qui ex Patre" is a group of ternary rhythm. Also Justin Ward book (I believe it's 4th Year. It's in the front page in this web.) has a real good explanation how the groups of rhythm (binary and ternary with ictus markings) beautifully interwined with texts creating the beautiful musical flow. I hope this makes sense.

janetgorbitz

Hugh... that is great... how did you do that? can you share with others of us who use Meinrad?

PS. I will be going to the "Big Chant" this summer in Chicago... and I will ask how the monks determined which spots to mark with ictus markings on the big ordinary chants like this one... surely either Scott Turkington, or Dr. Mahrt, or another director will know the background on that... Mia, how about you -- do you remember from your training with Dr. Marier?

Certainly there are already many more ictus markings on this ordinary than you would find in a normal proper... perhaps because they assumed many more of the faithful who were not necessarily schola members would be singing these pieces. I guess the assumption would be that anyone skilled enough to sing a proper would know how to figure out rhythmic groupings without as many spelled out.

Hugh

Miacoyne, thanks...indeed this is a hugely valuable forum for precisely that reason.

OK, just to recap & clarify: My point of departure was Patre Filioque,
ictus at 'tre' and 'que' with three unmarked syllables in between, so
query missing marked ictus.

I agreed with Janet that one should be placed at 'li', and with the
speculation that it's not marked there b/c that's the only place it could be,
so no assistance is needed by marking it in.

But then I noticed other phrases, such at the neighbouring '[Pa]tre et Filio',
with ictus at 'tre', ictus (unmarked) on first beat of 'o' and so the only possible
place for ictus in intervening syllables is at 'Fi' of Filio. Yet it is marked. So I
raised that as evidence against our speculation that only necessary icti were
being written in, since there are ready to hand examples of obvious icti being marked.

So to answer the question, the 'et' is the 'et' of Patre et Filio,
not a mistyped 'ex' of 'qui ex Patre' !!

Thanks for the tip re. Ward, too.

miacoyne

Thanks, for clearing out my confusion on Patre et Filio, not Patre Filioque. I was looking at the wrong spot.

J. Ward is under "Teaching Aids." in the front. Janet, did you have a chance to look at this book, do you own this one? (I remember you said you own her books). Scott gives all the basics you need in a limited time, and I think you will like this book, explains a lot that supplements the basic rules.
I don't remember Dr. Marier said anything about monk's ictus, except that we use them to find others. (I wish I paid more attention or recorded his class.) I just know that we don't change them (rule #1 don't change printed ictus), and I'm glad they are there.
But then I wonder are they all monks' original markings? or people added more over the years.

Hugh

Janet, I loaded up the relevant Meinrad font into Typetool 3 (google it & download) and just played around, basically. Easiest job was widening the episema. (Just did that in Meinrad A, as you can use the episemas from on font in the others.) For the liq. climacus, I copied the rhombuses in Meinrad A, and pasted each, into Meinrad B, substituting for the unnecessary ictus group (220 to 229 in B). Each one I put in, I reduced by about 80% (top point down 12 steps, bottom up 12, left in 8, right in 8). Etc, etc. Then generated & reloaded into Fonts. Note: they are prouced like the ictus they substitute for,(ie. using numeric keypad) not like the Upper Case 1-0 keys where the shapes come from. So slightly more fiddly than keying in notes, if you understand. But they're so infrequent it shouldn't be too much hassle. Sorry - I've got to get to bed! Will explain more anon if that's needed.

Note: I'd saved copies of the original fonts, so if things went pear-shaped I'd have a restore to fall back on.

I'm sure someone with more familiarity with font-making programs would come up with a much better & more elegant solution. But I'm in the middle of making a hymnbook, so haven't had much time in this field - just finding what works for the job at hand.

miacoyne

Yesterday we had a combined schola practice with another group nearby. And I experienced what Jeffrey says about ictus being so important, "it makes possible to sing together." I confess that I added a few extra horizontal episema that sounded good and stylish from well known chant schola (I believe they are semiology followers.) that I heard in their CDs. Our two gwoups were not together. And I kind of apologized to the other director what I did. He understood, and my schola had to modity from what they are used to. It could have been possible, if we had more time to discuss and practice together, but 'stylish thing' was in our way in singing together in a short time. Well, learned the importance of 'Ictus.'

In general, singing together with other group was a good experience and fun. (and the directors learn to compromise each other, very humling experience for a schola director)

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