Gloria Patri at Mass, In English
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,187
    At Mass in the OF (cf. OCM Praen. #1 or GS praen. #19) it's possible to use the Gloria Patri at the end of a processional chant (unless ex versu et antiphonae iteratione cantum nimis protrahi :-)).

    If singing in English, however, I'm unable to find an "official translation" of these verses, since there is none for the Graduals and it seems not to be mentioned in the GIRM at all. So do we sing "Glory be" and "world without end" as when reciting the Rosary, or must it be "Glory to" and "will be forever" like in the LotH? And maybe even "Holy Ghost"?

    I would like the schola to memorize these, to minimize page turning. But what text? This is a small question but not an idle one.

  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,510
    I think the LOH ending is proper to the LOH only, so you needn't worry about that. And "Spirit" is used in doxological formulations in the Missal, so that would make more sense than "Ghost," I think.
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  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    It in some ways depends on which book of English propers your using. SEP, Lumen Christi, and The Proper of the Mass for Sundays & Solemnities all use the traditional Gloria Patri translation; Palmer-Burgess also uses Holy Ghost.
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,187
    Well, that's arguable, @Salieri, especially when reading the doxology in place, straight out of the book. But I don't care to ask for two versions (four if you count the processional and office tones separately) memorized, with consequent confusion.

    But I'll settle on Fr Weber's version, rather than Burgess'n'Palmer, for Kathy's reasons and yours (since more likely to be chanting from The Proper Of The Mass when doxology is used). The other book we use is By Flowing Waters, which has "Give glory... will be forever. Amen."
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,510
    Interestingly, the traddie expression Holy Ghost is Germanic in origin, and the post VII expression Holy Spirit is latinate. I would have expected the reverse.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    The Ordinariate Use's use is 'Glory be... to the Holy Ghost... world without end...'. Of course, this is official only for the Ordinariate. The St Meinrad 'use' is 'Glory to... the Holy Spirit.. as always before, so now and evermore...'. (I always thought that the '... as always before, so now and evermore...' was kind of nice.) It seems to me that for the OF, since there is no 'official' translation of any of the propers, one is at liberty to use that of his choice. Personally, I've always thought that 'Glory to...' instead of 'Glory be to...' sounded rather artless, graceless, clumsy, clunky, and dumb. As for 'Ghost', it seems that certain types went with an ax after all Anglo-Saxon or Germanic sourced words in favour of Latinate ones, though traditional English usage had always leant to 'Ghost'. 'Ghost', of course, means 'Spirit', but not in the minds of certain frown-minded types who like to impose their idiocy and just plain ignorance on everyone else - and weedle themselves into positions of influence so that they can do so.
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  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,022
    This is my biggest worry about the English translation of the Propers: if, indeed, they become in vogue again, will ICEL take charge of them, and force us to use ONLY their translation - of both the Antiphon/Verse AND the Doxology. IMO, this would be continued micromanaging.

    When Catholics recite the "Glory be" in public prayer, it IS the one Jackson has stated as official for the Ordinariates. It is also the one that was printed on the right hand page of all the Latin/English personal Missals for over a century. Again, IMO, there is no need whatsoever to force us to use the Protestant "Rite II" translation! And I will fight against it to the death!
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,510
    Persons of immediate post VII influence tended to favor Germanic terms in English.
  • Marc Cerisier
    Posts: 537
    We use the St. Meinrad version—I quite like it.

    Marc
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 1,023
    We use the LoTH version (which our pastor views as official since the Hours may be combined with Mass).
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