Polyphonic Mass logistics in an EF Mass
  • Angelina
    Posts: 27
    Hi all! My choir (not church choir-but a local Chorale) is coming to my parish in May to sing a polyphonic mass (Byrd's Mass for Five Voices) in an extraordinary form Mass.

    Do we sing the Kyrie in triplex?? Anything else I should know in guiding the logistics? Thanks!
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,053
    1. consult with the clergy 2. check De Musica Sacra - google it and download from Corpus Christi Watershed, particularly para 27 which points out that you finish the Sanctus, keep silence till the Consecration/Elevation , and then sing the Benedictus. 3. consult with the clergy.
    Byrd wrote it for the EF, so you sing what Byrd wrote! Apart from the timing of the Benedictus, there should not be logistical problems for you, the celebrant will sit out each bit of music if he finishes first (which he will). 4. consult with the clergy.
    27.... d. The Sanctus and the Benedictus, if chanted in Gregorian,
    must be sung without a break, otherwise the Benedictus is to be
    sung after the Consecration.
    e. All singing must cease during the Consecration and, where
    custom permits their use, the playing of the organ or any other
    musical instrument must also cease.
    f. After the Consecration, unless the Benedictus is still to be
    sung, devout silence is advised until the time of the Pater Noster.
  • Ben YankeBen Yanke
    Posts: 3,115
    With polyphony, it's acceptable to sing it as written The sanctus stops after the 1st "hosanna", and is continued with "benedictus" only after the consecration of the wine.

    Other than that, it's basically the same.
    Thanked by 1Cantus67

  • ah, good advice from AFH, especially 1, 3, and 4. :)
  • Angelina
    Posts: 27
    Thank you! I'm glad the Benedictus was mentioned-I had meant to ask about that, too.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,341
    Byrd wrote it for the EF


    Really, EF refers to the rite of 1962 (ish...) The Rite, the Missal texts and the Rubrics in Bryd's time were not the same.

    I would ask for an opinion on the Kyrie, we have sung the 3 voice Mass and sing alternating with chant. In Byrd's time Troped Kyrie are the norm.

    Also if indicated in the ordo we would also sing the polyphonic Credo.

    EDIT, spelling/ auto correct
    Thanked by 1CCooze
  • Indicted? Will the liturgy police be there?
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 1,864
    In Byrd's time Troped Kyrie are the norm.

    That late? I thought the English recusants were using Tridentine norms by that time, given that their priests were trained in France.
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,021
    Over the past few years, we have performed some of the Byrd Masses here. We once did the "Mass for 3 Voices" with only the written "Kyrie.., Christe.., Kyrie..", but more recently we discovered an edition (probably not original) where a schola did the first "Kyrie", echoed by the full choir; ditto for the "Christe"; then the schola repeated the first "Kyrie" before the choir sang the final "Kyrie". Our Pastor was OK with both performances.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,160
    indicted in the ordo we would also sing the polyphonic Credo.


    Which Ordo indicates singing a 'polyphonic' Credo? Credo III is usually sufficient for the EF, as are Credos 1, 2, and 4.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,341
    We don't sing Credo III... I,II, & IV normally, VI occasionally.

    I have heard suggestions that the Credo should be in chant so everybody can join in, but we usually sing the Credo written for the Mass setting.
  • Ben YankeBen Yanke
    Posts: 3,115
    I have heard suggestions that the Credo should be in chant so everybody can join in, but we usually sing the Credo written for the Mass setting.


    If you're already chanting the credo, by all means, people can join, but by no means should we exclude polyphonic credos.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw Jahaza
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,689
    Who knows about the tropes? I feel most comfortable filling in the Kyrie with a chant setting from the Liner Usualis, like Mass IV.
  • At Mass this past Sunday (with Cardinal Burke at St. Margaret Mary's in Oakland), we sang Mass XVIII's Kyrie, first by the men, then by the ladies, and finally in polyphonic form.

    Thank you, Arthur Connick, for introducing me to this variation which had never occurred to me previously. I thought it was beautiful. As I think of it, one could also put a single iteration between two polyphonic iterations -- the same one twice.
    Thanked by 1Ben Yanke
  • Angelina
    Posts: 27
    Since I am not super familiar with the EF, do we have to sing the Vidi aquam and Victime paschali laudes as well, since it is in Easter? It's not the principal Mass of the day, per se, but it is a Sunday Mass....
    If so, when?? I am researching, but thought I may as well ask. Thanks!
  • I'm intuiting that Byrd's recussants would likely have sung the troped Kyrie which they remembered from Sarum times. I must confess that I don't know which Kyrie that was. In most countries or dioceses certain Kyries are historically associated with them, for instance Fons bonitatis in the Germanies (which became and remains the chorale Kyrie Gott Vater in Ewigkeit of the Lutherans), Cunctipotens genitor Deus in France (Paris), and so forth. One might bear this in mind when fitting chant with polyphonic masses. At any rate, I would follow Byrd's lead and sing a chant kyrie with this mass.

    Since this isn't an historical recreation you are delivered from pronouncing the Latin as it would have been pronounced in England in the mid-XVIth century.
  • Jackson,

    What does Latin sound like in the mouth of a Glaswegian?
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Chris,

    I've nary a clue.
    I do know that it sounds awfully untutored in the mouth of well tutored Oxonians of our day and time - so it probably sounded exponentially worse (relative to our ears) in the XVIth century.

    Perhaps some of our British members can shed some light here.

    (A real eye [ear?] opener is Paul McCreesh's recording of the third mass of Christmas with John Sheppard's missa cantate as it would have sounded sung with English-pronounced Latin in the late XVth-early XVIth centuries, before the Great Vowel Shift. You can hear it on youtube if you don't already have the CD.)
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    Angelina, if it is on a Sunday in Easter, but not on Easter Sunday or Low Sunday, you do not have to sing the VPL (if it is one of those days, it follows the 2nd Alleluia verse, omitting the repeated "Alleluia"), but the Vidi Aquam would be the appropriate chant for the asperges.
  • JahazaJahaza
    Posts: 468
    Since I am not super familiar with the EF, do we have to sing the Vidi aquam and Victime paschali laudes as well, since it is in Easter? It's not the principal Mass of the day, per se, but it is a Sunday Mass....

    The Vidi aquam is sung only at (properly speaking, before) the principal Mass in the EF. If it is not the principal Mass you do not do it. This can be fudged if you like by temporarily shifting which Mass is designated as the principal one, if you only have one EF Mass. If you have more than one EF Mass you can only do it at one of them.

    Angelina, if it is on a Sunday in Easter, but not on Easter Sunday or Low Sunday, you do not have to sing the VPL (if it is one of those days, it follows the 2nd Alleluia verse, omitting the repeated "Alleluia"), but the Vidi Aquam would be the appropriate chant for the asperges.

    In the EF, the Easter Sequence is sung from Easter Sunday through Easter Saturday inclusive, but not on Low Sunday. This is because it is only sung during the Octave and the Octave runs from Saturday through Saturday. This is, I think, a relic of the Easter Vigil being celebrated on Saturday during the day, but it has never been changed.

    In the OF, the Easter Sequence is sung from Easter Sunday through Low Sunday inclusive, because the octave runs from Easter Sunday through Low Sunday. It's optional, however, on Low Sunday.

    There's discussion from Dr. Mahrt here.
    Thanked by 1HeitorCaballero
  • My choir (not church choir-but a local Chorale) is coming to my parish in May to sing a polyphonic mass


    An interesting exercise. I wonder what proportion of the participants don't actually believe in the existence of the God they will be singing to.
  • I wonder what proportion of the participants...

    Certainly this will be a great evangelization tool for the parish at which the Chorale is singing. The transcendent beauty of the Mass is certain to have an effect on those who are sensitive to beauty whether or not they believe in God.
    Thanked by 1MarkS
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 1,864
    I wonder what proportion of the participants don't actually believe in the existence of the God they will be singing to.

    Once upon a time there was a singer who got a job in an Anglican Catholic Church. He was not a Christian, but he figured that part of professionalism was being silent about his opinions. Oh, there was a somebody across the loft whom he would roll eyes at whenever Father talked about abortion or women priests, but otherwise... Eventually a funny thing happened: he converted, and eventually swam the Tiber.

    And so... I'd rather have people singing who can sing, even if they have unshriven mortal sin. Because if they show up where God talks, they might eventually listen.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    "In the EF, the Easter Sequence is sung from Easter Sunday through Easter Saturday inclusive, but not on Low Sunday"

    Yes, my bad. You are correct.

    Low Sunday is the octave of Easter, though.
  • Angelina
    Posts: 27
    It's the only EF Mass that Sunday. We have two OF Masses in the morning, and the EF at 5pm.

    I'm excited to use the opportunity as an evangelization tool. Many members are Community of Christ. In fact, our director is, too, and is converting this year to Catholicism!
    We just got beautiful new artwork, too, so the whole affair will (hopefully) be a transcendent experience. I'm looking forward to it. Thank you, all!
    Thanked by 1Jeffrey Quick
  • mahrt
    Posts: 517
    The Kyrie of the Byrd three-Voice Mass is puzzling. By Byrd's time, Catholics were using the Tridentine rite, and the tropes would have been very unlikely. In the tradition, tropes were sung in a chant Kyrie; that is why earlier English polyphonic Masses did not have a polyphonic Kyrie.

    I think it is very unlikely that in Byrd's time, they would have alternated the polyphonic settings with chant. One reason is that there is no trace of a chant melody in the polyphony, which is usually the case where chant alternation would be used.

    Another view is that Byrd was setting exactly what was in the gradual. There just three melodies are given, with the rubric that the first is sung three times, the second three, the first again two times and the last once, as, for example, in the Liber Usualis, Mass XVIII. This approach to what text is to be set can be seen in Byrd's Gradualia. The ins and outs of repetition for the Gradualia have been worked out by Phillip Brett. I have tried this nine-fold performance of the Byrd, but I did not think it satisfactory. We now just sing the three, understanding that when three voices sing, you have nine invocations, perhaps a bit sophistical reasoning, but I think that is how Byrd might have done it.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,053
    I would venture to disagree slightly with Dr Mahrt, not on musical grounds but historical ones. English Catholics were finding it very difficult to circulate missals. Priests would not commonly carry a missal on their travels, much too difficult to conceal, but would use the missal available in situ, whether Sarum or Tridentine. Apart from that English Catholics had a strong attachment to the old ways, and there is much recorded hostility between the modernising Jesuits and the secular clergy. Byrd would have been 50, or over, in 1593.
    Although it is true that the Tridentine Missal was introduced at Douai from 1577, Sarum Use (which was licit) persisted in some places for at least another century.
  • Mr Hawkins has hit upon an interesting historical matter not often given its due, namely, the reception of the Tridentine rite in post-conciliar Europe. Whilst thinking that his intuition is correct concerning English Catholics and the Sarum Use, one may note, as well, that the Tridentine rite did not receive universal acceptance over regional uses for varying lengths of time, those lengths not rarely being centuries. This was particularly true in the French kingdom, where there was a strong traditional bias for Gallicanisms and a not altogether loving relationship betwixt roi and pape. Truth be known, both the French and Spanish kings had let it be known that they could go the way of England were not certain prerogatives, such as naming bishops (a sore inherited from the mediaeval era's investiture controversies) and so forth, forthcoming.

    Whilst there was a strong historical, universal, and existential sense of Catholic unity surrounding the pope (a contract not wholly without basis in a lingering sense of romanitas), there was no rarity of equally strong regional loyalties which often ran counter to papal authority. It was, ironically, the reformation itself which really cemented a Church which previously had a relatively loose knit structure, and a kaleidoscope of regional uses and traditions. Now that there were Catholic and Not Catholic ecclesial entities in Christendom, the loyalties and their material evidence became far more important as definitive signifers.

    There are others here, I think, who could treat on these matters more fully than I.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Elmar
  • We now just sing the three, understanding that when three voices sing, you have nine invocations, perhaps a bit sophistical reasoning, but I think that is how Byrd might have done it.


    We also sing Byrd's Mass for 3 Voices and alternate it with the chant (prior to that we sang each part 3 times). In our experience with another Mass setting where the tropes are less distinct and obvious (they overlap each other), the priests (FSSP) have made a point of informing us that there must be a nine fold Kyrie.
    Thanked by 1CCooze
  • How many here celebrate an EF mass every week?
    What percentage are high, sung, and low masses?
    What is the average attendance?
    What parish and city?
  • 150 at High Mass (EF); 40 at Low Mass (EF)
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,341
    Daily EF
    Sunday; Sung Mass (140)
    Monday-Friday (7am) Low Mass (20)
    Thursday 12.30pm Low / Sung Mass (40)
    Saturday 9am Low / Sung Mass (50)

    N.B. Our Mass attendance is higher than all but one of the OF parish Masses.

    The Masses on Thursday and Saturdays are sung on Feast days. We have at least 3 High Masses a year, although the past Saturday and Sunday were High Masses, so we may manage more this year.

    Our choir also sings EF Mass on Monday and Wednesday evenings in other churches in the centre of London.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,021
    Weekly EF at 5:30pm on Sunday - usually Low with hymns (We have a new Deacon who has a good voice and loves the EF Mass, so we might have High Mass more often in the future.)

    Monthly First Friday at 4:00 Low - no music

    All Souls' Requiem (on or near Nov. 2, usually Faure')

    Christmas at Midnight (or maybe 10 pm)

    Stella Maris
    Sullivan's Island (Charleston Harbor)
  • Angelina
    Posts: 27
    If it makes a difference-we are singing the Mass for Five Voices. I was thinking with the repetitions in the voices it would be essentially equivalent to singing it in triplex. There doesn't seem to be hints of alternating chants, yet I know I am way out of my league. I would love to learn more!
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 1,864
    Many members are Community of Christ.

    As in former RLDS? That's what the Quicks were, but my paternal grandfather married a Lutheran girl, so...

    As for MJO's question: Every week, 100% sung, 100-125, St. Sebastian Akron OH
  • Many members are Community of Christ.


    I'm delighted to hear it: If we believe that our music is sung prayer, it really helps to have believers (of whatever stripe) doing the singing.

    I'm well aware that great music can be a tool for evangelisation.

    But in many of the places I've lived, the people who join community choirs do so because they are specifically choosing not to join a church choir - in many cases because they outright reject any kind of faith-life. I'm not at all convinced that putting them in public worship roles, which they view as simply a performance, is a good idea. Of that we should see what they are doing as worshipping God, when they don't.

  • Pax has offered some quite lucid and candid assessments of non-Christian participation in Christian ritual. Many such persons have no desire to be 'evangelised', either purposefully or incidentally, and see their participation in our worship as an expression of their own private 'spirituality' or psychic growth. We should thank the Lord that they come to us to get it. The music itself and the performance of it with others is, for some of them, an end in itself with its own set of subjective rewards. Others may (this resonates with yesterday's gospel, doesn't it!) never know when their eyes will be opened and they may, like C.S. Lewis, be 'surprised by {a} joy' that they hadn't dreamed of or sought. Just as all 'believers' are not alike, so it is with non-believers. Never, ever, put anyone in a box. If anything will get through to them it will be the apparent faith, maturity, and genuine devotion of their Christian hosts - who don't attempt in any way to proselyte but receive them lovingly.

    I served in a prominent Lutheran church in Houston for fifteen years. (A through and through Anglo-Catholic serving Missouri Synod Lutherans - unheard of!) They never attempted to 'convert' me and I was always scrupulously careful not to proselytise. I did take their spirituality and the latent Catholicism within their faith and ritual very, very seriously and won their gratitude for increasing their own appreciation of their heritage and its origins. I am grateful for all those years of outstanding music, choral and congregational, and a deeply respectful relationship with the pastor. Example is the most profound teacher. Be grateful that there are those present to witness it and leave the rest to God. His will will be done: Gottes Zeit ist der allerbest Zeit!

    Even in Walsingham's choir we have had at least one Jew, a wondrously talented voice major at the UofH, who was always very respectful of our worship, even admired aspects of it. He especially liked my Gregorian chant a la Palmer-Burgess. Actually, I always felt a little sympathy for him during Holy Week, and especially on Good Friday. He has left with good memories of Christians but will always be a Jew because that is what he is.

    Thanked by 3CHGiffen MarkS Elmar
  • MarkS
    Posts: 273
    people who join community choirs do so because they are specifically choosing not to join a church choir


    I second Mr. Osborn's comments, and would add that many folks, even religiously minded ones, eschew church choirs in favor of community choirs because the community choirs offer better musical experiences than local church choirs—which in this area generally do a pretty poor job of singing pretty poor music. It has therefore been my operating principal to build my church choirs to be as good or better than any of the local community choirs in terms of performance/rep standards, and to 'sell it' as such to the community. In this way I have managed to attract singers who would not otherwise have been interested in singing in a church choir. And interesting things happen when people are exposed to the experience of singing authentic sacred masterpieces in a serious liturgical setting! This is not only a choir-building activity but a church-building one, as these folks and their families and friends often become involved in the greater life of the church.

  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,921
    ^^Indeed^^. When parishioners ask me where they can learn more about singing, I refer them to community choruses with knowledgeable directors. Some of those directors have advanced degrees in choral conducting and years of experience; and the groups often perform respected choral works, many of them sacred in character. Both of those features are lacking in most parish music programs.
    Thanked by 1MarkS
  • mahrt
    Posts: 517
    I would not doubt that there was an admixture of the use of Sarum and Tridentine missals in England in the sixteenth century. Still, When Byrd set the texts of the gradual, he used the Tridentine gradual. Whatever missal the priest might have been using would not affect the usage of the Ordinary of the Mass, except for the Kyrie, where the Sarum included tropes. Byrd's Masses do not include tropes at all, so where is there evidence of the old usage there?

    As for the Sarum usage, the sensitivity to the integral text must not have been very great, since in most polyphonic Masses of the period the Credo text is incomplete, and the polyphony does not provide a place for the interpolation of chant for the omitted texts. I must admit that I have avoided using pre-Byrd English Masses for liturgical use because of this omission.

    Concerning the nine-fold Kyrie, continental polyphonic settings of the Kyrie do not consistently provide three invocations for each section. One commonly sees Kyrie at the beginning of a section and -leison at the end, with the probability that the rest of the section was sung on the vowell e. Occasionally modern editors add enough text to provide a nine-fold setting. On the other hand, in the late sixteenth century, there can be more than three statements of Kyrie eleison within a single section. I would conclude that in polyphonic setting, the nine-fold presentation of the text was not an issue.
  • When parishioners ask me where they can learn more about singing, I refer them to community choruses with knowledgeable directors. Some of those directors have advanced degrees in choral conducting and years of experience; and the groups often perform respected choral works, many of them sacred in character. Both of those features are lacking in most parish music programs.

    I don't disagree with that in the least: some members of any community chorus will indeed be Christians whose own churches don't have musical programmes of substance.

    But equally some will be athiest, pagan, wiccan, whatever else you're having. I have seen churches who naively believed that they were evangelising the "unchurched" by inviting them to be involved with aspects of worship, who had no idea of the intentions in the hearts of the people themselves, which were vastly different from the Christian message.

    Of course this doesn't matter if you believe that the choir/musicians are there serve the PIP by enhancing the pray. But if you believe that the choir/musicians are there to serve God alone - then belief in God (not just in music) should be the starting place for participation.
  • .
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,160
    Re: Byrd's 3-part....the music person at our parish now has the congregation singing the soprano-line of the Kyrie (responding to a rendition by a soloist.) The inevitable train-wreck happens when the congregation is required to sing Byrd's final 'Kyrie.'

    If one is going to go to that extreme, why not simply teach the congregation a CHANT Kyrie?
  • MarkS
    Posts: 273
    I have worked with a lot of community choirs in one capacity or another for many years, and I have yet to run across a self professed Wiccan or pagan—I think they constitute a vanishingly small percentage of the population. I think the incidence of actual, self-conscious and intellectually honest atheists is also rather small. I actually think that most people, consciously or not, have a sense of 'God' or a sense of that which is 'holy' without having had a context which allows them to fully access that very human part of their nature. For some, the experience of singing sacred music in it's intended liturgical setting might be the thing that finally helps everything to fall into place.

    As guest singers in the OP's scenario, I assume the choir would have been briefed on the historical but also liturgical significance of the experience that they would be participating in. I also would assume those who might have serious objections would choose, as a matter of conscience, not to participate. But what's the downside to allowing of allowing folks to experience truly sacred music in it's liturgical setting?

    As for my own choirs, every person in my program understands that we sing exclusively to God in worship (liturgy!), and definitely are NOT there to entertain the congregation, and yet all are welcome, whatever their present belief system. As one of our favorite VBS songs has it, "All God's creature's got a place in the choir. Some sing low, some sing higher." Let's not underestimate the power of truly sacred music to bring folks to God!
    Unless that's not a thing. : )

    If I have expressed myself less than artfully—my apologies! My other musician self (church music being my soul, but not the entire source of my livelihood) just finished a two week run of Sweeney Todd. There's some godless entertainment for you! (although maybe not entirely)—but what an amazing score, and a great piece of theatre! Only once or twice a year do I have to sit in an orchestra and count through block rests—pianists and organists can relate. It gives me a headache!
  • JesJes
    Posts: 570
    @MarkS The Bassoon part in that is SUBLIME

    I HAVE come across wiccan people but none who have wanted to join a Catholic choir... plenty who have wanted to advertise their shops of stuff in the Church vestibule (which is never granted.)

    I do get a lot of atheists who want to join Catholic choirs and the reason is money... it's paid singing. SOME do indeed get converted. (One of my Jewish friends is considering Catholicism since joining one of my choirs. They sing every Easter and Christmas at various churches and reckon if they did convert they could be baptised at the Easter vigil.) The power of sacred music does indeed
    bring folks to God.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 1,864
    some will be athiest, pagan, wiccan, whatever else you're having. I have seen churches who naively believed that they were evangelising the "unchurched" by inviting them to be involved with aspects of worship, who had no idea of the intentions in the hearts of the people themselves,


    It's the job of the MD to make sure that such people are "with the program", and if they can't be, they need to leave. This is no different from being in somebody else's house and following their rules.

    As for Wiccans and choirs... There's a fairly extreme High Church/Low Church split between Gardnerians/British Traditional Wicca on one hand, and the self-initiated, read-it-in-a-book sort on the other. The former is a small percentage of what is out there, but would probably contain most of the people interested in classical music making. Many will find a home not in general community choirs, but in either gay choruses or Unitarian church choirs (for the past several decades, the U-Us are where pagans go when they want to play church)
  • I came to this (very rich and stimulating) thread looking for a specific answer to a logistic/liturgical question, which has only been briefly hinted at toward the beginning.

    My question is, what to do with the length of the Sanctus/Benedictus in many polyphonic masses. Cards on the table—I am a committed Anglican/Episcopal softie who nonetheless has a deep love and reverence for the practice of polyphonic mass singing in a true liturgical context. It’s why I left the Baptists I grew up with. I am used to those two items being presented as a unit in the Book of Common Prayer and its successors, and to the words of the Great Thanksgiving (all of them) being the central to Eucharistic liturgy.

    Do I deduce rightly (also from other hints in other conversations) that in the context of a Polyphonic mass in some Roman churches (and commonly in the time of their composition), the priestly words and sung Sanctus happen simultaneously up to the point “in the night in which he was betrayed, Jesus took bread…” ? What are the specific ways that all traditionally fits together? Does the sung Sanctus begin following “Therefore with angels…” or before that? How do we reconcile that with the sentiment, widely held among Protestants, and made explicit for Catholics with Vatican II, of “full comprehension and participation?” (Asking this question honestly, not rhetorically or dogmatically)
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,341
    @LorenCarle

    So the priest says Sanctus, as the choir begins the Sanctus. The priest continues with the prayers in the Missal, Te igitur... etc. Now ideally the choir should have chosen music that will not be too long, but if not the priest would wait at the Qui prídie until the choir has finished singing the Sanctus.

    After the Consecration, the final genuflection give the cue for the choir to sing the Benedictus.
  • Thank you!

    Hence the paramount importance of cultivating good communication and relations between music leadership, choir, and clergy
    Thanked by 2ServiamScores tomjaw
  • Loren, if you look at the old mass settings of the masters, you'll see that the sanctus and benedictus are separate movements (typically). This is why.
  • Yes—I had long wondered that. Among Anglicans who do this sort of thing, we have typically just sung them together, which can get long, so we shy away from many a treasure for that reason.

    Does anyone have experience of the priest being audible through the mic while the Sanctus is sung? How do you communicate that overlap positively with congregants? I’m not directing a choir right now, but some friends and I have just such a service in the planning stages with St. Mary’s, Park City UT for early in the New Year. We’re so far proposing Josquin’s Pange Lingua mass for the event, and the Sanctus and Benedictus are both on their own pretty lengthy.