New Mass (Gloria and Agnus Dei)

damienconway

Hello everyone!

Happy New Year to you all from Ireland.

I've been working of this for some time. Any comments appreciated - don't be too harsh!

Included are the Gloria and Agnus Dei... there are other parts I can post after I get an initial verdict.

Chris Garton-Zavesky

Damien Conway,

Two observations jumped into my throat (onto my fingertips, if you like):

1) This clearly intends to be a festive setting, since you use a b-flat trumpet. On the other hand, since only the refrain is in parts, it sounds a bit (how to put this) modern-Anglican.

2) I think you will find that the idea of a Gloria in Excelsis Deo with a refrain is somewhat dated.

Now I can look at the Agnus Dei.

Cheers,

Chris

Chris Garton-Zavesky

Damien Conway,

The Agnus Dei spends much time establishing C-major as the Dominant, and then appears to end in D-major (which is to say, you use a Picardy third in a piece whose key signature intends D-minor, not F major.) Since I don't get the impression that the piece has a minor tone, I found that jarring.

Cheers,

Chris

damienconway

Thanks for taking the time and submitting comments - I'll have a look at it again

rich_enough

Lovely. I for one was not jarred by the ending of the Agnus Dei, but pleasantly surprised, if I can put it that way. I don't care for Gloria settings with refrain - musically it works OK, but in terms of the text it breaks up the natural flow of the prayer which was always meant to be sung straight through.

Just be aware that the ranges of the voice parts are quite low, particularly the tenors, so the texture runs the risk of sounding a bit "muddy" or at least more mellow than you might want. It can also sound deep and rich, which is what I suspect you want, but you might consider raising the pitch a step to avoid the first pitfall and perhaps add a bit of clarity to the sound of the choral writing.

damienconway

Thanks for your comments. I looked back at the Agnus Dei and I'm content enough with the ending. I'll have another look at the voice ranges.

I'm aware it's the preference for the Gloria to be through-composed but I'm very conscious about excluding the congregation. Nearly all the Irish Mass Settings that emerged from Missal III has adopted the refrain verse approach. Perhaps I should break the mould.

Thanks again for your comments - much appreciated.

M. Jackson Osborn

Gloria in excelsis Deo is not a verse and refrain form! It is not a responsory. To treat it as such is presumptuously to savage this ancient hymn in psalmodic form, sometimes known in the scholarly world as the Angelic Hymn, as well as a psalmus idioticus. It is also to savage its liturgical function, which is as a hymn sung straight through by all or by a choir, not as a sort of responsorial text. And, by what strange reasoning does singing Gloria straight through exclude the congregation? If one doesn't wish to exclude them, write a Gloria that they can sing - straight through. No one can licitly alter or rewrite ritual texts.

I had thought that our bishops forbad these so called 'refrain' glorias (more 'spirit of Vatican II' tinkering that isn't really Vatican II) some years ago. Is this not so?

Otherwise, subject to some similar reservations as expressed above by others, I think that your writing is praiseworthy. I like your textures and rhythmic interplay - also, your syllabification is quite pleasing. A clumsy sense of this latter spoils many other otherwise good compositions.

damienconway

Thanks again for your comments...

Here are the Scantus and Memorial Acclamations --

matthewj

I had thought that our bishops forbad these so called 'refrain' glorias (more 'spirit of Vatican II' tinkering that isn't really Vatican II) some years ago. Is this not so?

This is not so. They continue to approve refrain Glorias to this day.

melofluent

Has Capella Sixtini foregone using the "Angelis" incipit as a refrain?

M. Jackson Osborn

This is not so.

I was afraid of this.
I thought that I had heard otherwise.
It's really unfortunate that the bishops, who are supposed, among other things, to be guardians of the liturgy often and in sundry ways turn out to be its willing despoilers.
That is no reason for musicians to follow suit.
Gloria is a hymn - not a responsorial ditty.

Steve Collins

What Bishops are now "approving" anything? Do you see any "imprimatur" or "nihil obstat" on any of the publications? I still don't see any of those in hard-cover hymnals, songbooks, or throw-away "Missalettes". Just because they don't step up to the plate and forbid it does NOT make it right, good, or appropriate.

ICEL did a pretty good job with their 2011 re-translations, especially putting the original form of the "Gloria" back. The even commissioned their texts to be set to Gregorian melodies that included "Gloria XV", AND the USCCB demanded that the ICEL Chant versions of the Ordinary be the FIRST printed option in all publications.

If that doesn't put the sickening idea of a responsive "Glory be to God on high" to rest, I can't think what would. I guess there will continue to be gross disobedience in certain circles of "modernist" musicians.

You would be doing yourself and many other Catholic musicians a real favor by composing ALSO the "Gloria" in hymn-style, straight through.

As a further comment, I don't think it is appropriate to ask a congregation to sing 16th-note grace notes in the melody. If you'd like the trumpet to ad them for fun, that's one thing, but not the congregation. You may not remember when "Amazing Grace" started being sung in Catholic circles, or "Morning Has Broken". In both cases we had members of the congregation trying to sing it like Cat Stevens, or Judy Collins (no relation!), or some other modern popular singer. Just give them the simplest form of the melody. That is within the greater tradition of the church.

damienconway

Thanks again for your comments.

I will tackle a through-composed setting of the Gloria next time.

Just out of interest, are cultural influences accepted in Chruch Music? I'm from Ireland and hence the grace notes which sort of hint at an Irish Style. For instance, the Irish language translation of the Missal and their musical settings would be very much in that style.

a_f_hawkins

What Bishops are now "approving" anything?

Very much my complaint about the English&Welsh Bishops, but perhaps the Canadians are doing better?
Grace notes need a new thread, if anybody is knowledgable about the eastern mediterranean, or the Irish, or what happened to 'Gregorian' before the 19th century restoration. James MacMillan is both a strong advocate of chant and not averse to grace notes in his congregational settings. Here, in the middle of the Irish Sea, our organists do not put grace notes in their hymn accompaniments, but plenty of the congregation will add them.

M. Jackson Osborn

Steve's comments are sage.
About those grace notes - while he's likely right about them, too, I wouldn't rule out a congregation here and there with talented choirmaster-teachers being able deftly to pull them off.

vansensei

The ranges for the tenors are really low... It's not a good range and really, it's more of a baritone range. Don't be afraid to have some E4s and F4s, man.

Athblilain faoi mhaise duit!

Steve Collins

I wouldn't rule out a congregation being "able" to sing the grace notes, but the larger the group the more difficult they will be to keep together, and I believe singing TOGETHER is a key element to congregational singing.

Remember also that I have a professional bagpiper son. Grace notes, sometimes as many as 4 of them preceding one melody note, are critical to the proper performance on the bagpipe. But no one would seriously take those performance grace notes back to the folk melodies from which they were derived!

Neither do I believe that being part of an "Irish style" is a good enough reason for using them. That Irish style would certainly be from secular music, not sacred. (And that would also rule out the many Irish crooning style of vernacular hymns that cropped up with the early 20th century, at least in the USA!)

a_f_hawkins

In this example of mixed instrumental (1 min in) and vocal performance the styles are indeed different. My computer system seems to have stopped giving any performance information, I think Riga flashed past and disappeared.

damienconway

I'm new to this forum - I have to say some of the inputs can be arrogant, filled with own self-importance and nasty in tone. Dare I also say that there's a hint of xenophobia in Mr Collins' comments.

melofluent

Don't be put off, Mr. Conway. There's precious little petulance here compared to other fori. This one is home for not a few seriously pedigreed composer/arrangers; there is a certain level of risk involved in posting one's work here. Were you to present your Mass at an annual colloquium or intensive, the reception would be much more instructive and congenial. One of the aspects that your work presents calls out a persistent, irritant-like question: where exactly does a culturally imbued Mass setting in Greek/Latin reside in the bifurcated venues of the NO/TLM? Yours is intently congregational. But it may, like many other historical and recent settings, be ultimately relegated to the dedicated choir. Generally speaking, the "congregational"/choral Latin Mass is proven a bridge too far.

M. Jackson Osborn

Mr Conway -

Mr Collins is no xenophobe!
With the exception of taking exception to your following the crowd who presume to make a responsorial form out of Gloria, it seems to me that you have been awarded some complimentary observations and, with an absence of 'arrogance' or 'nasty tone', received some criticism that you might do well to take to heart.
Do I see a chip on your epaulette?
You are not Thomas Tallis.

Welcome to this forum.
And do continue to grace us with your compositions.
They show promise.

Steve Collins

The Liturgy of the Church is there for us to immerse ourselves in - those in leadership positions maybe a bit more than the common person in the pew. The Liturgy is not a canvas for us to paint our own selves onto. It's about worshiping God, not ourselves - and that extends to our national and cultural identities.

A "phobia" is a fear. I am almost 50% Irish, and 100% Catholic. I don't fear things like this. I just know that they have no place in the Liturgies of the Church.

damienconway

Thanks again for all your comments. I really do appreciate them when they're constructive.

I completely take onboard the Gloria comments in reference to the refrain approach. Which I've acknowledged.

Let me assure you, I've no chip on my shoulder.

I took exception to the comment that the Irish have some how corrupted church music in America by their "crooning".

An example of modern Irish Liturgy music:

https://youtu.be/x5bwhR-QyJU

Crooning? I think not!

I know I'm new but, If I could make a suggestion? If you insist on posting in such convoluted English, you may as well push the boat out and use Latin - that way I'd understand it better.

MatthewRoth

I think all of the Irish and Irish–Americans, myself included, on this forum recognize that it’s mostly the Irish to blame for the poor state of liturgical music in this country. It has also been said that we keep flogging a dead horse.

That piece is lovely, but I bet that its composer knows a thing or two about chant and Renaissance polyphony in addition to Irish music. :)

Reval

I know I'm new but, If I could make a suggestion? If you insist on posting in such convoluted English, you may as well push the boat out and use Latin - that way I'd understand it better.

Oh Mr. Conway, many things posted here are a bit of an inside joke. There is a long history of postings wherein the Irish are given at least partial "credit" for the current state of Catholic music in the US. Many people think that the large numbers of Irish, and of course Irish priests, with their custom of Masses without much music, were a huge influence in parts of the US. So, these things about the Irish are said (somewhat) tongue-in-cheek. I am not a huge part of this forum, but you are welcome, and please don't take umbrage at the collegial ribbing you may get here!

melofluent

If you insist on posting in such convoluted English, you may as well push the boat out and use Latin - that way I'd understand it better.

I think I've read that a thousand times.....over at PrayTellBlog.....complaining about MR3.
Can't say I understand the Strunk and White prevailing attitudes here sometimes. There's a point where reductio becomes absurdio.
For Mr. Conway et al, I apperstiate hows we oughter not talk purdy, but plain mos' of the time. A'll be sures to google translate nes time. BTW, wha's "convoluted?"

M. Jackson Osborn

A thing convoluted, in nature (as in the structure of many organisms, shells, and geological specimens), in architecture (as in the scrolls of Ionic and Corinthian capitals), or in language (as in gorgeously unfolding syntax), or in music (as in masterfully wrought form and procedure) is a lovely thing indeed, a delight to all the senses and the intellect (which may be counted another sense). How else should one wish his English to have been crafted?

WWNPHETBC?

Chris Garton-Zavesky

WWNPHETBC?

Jackson,

I know you didn't address this to me, but could you translate for those of us who didn't follow you into this labyrinth?

M. Jackson Osborn

Well, Chris, I'm just joining in a game which seems to have quite a following on our forum, namely, the gratuitous succession of letters which, presumably, translate into a short message or statement. Most of the time I, like you, am left in puzzlement, though a few I have managed to decipher. I could be unkind and let you (and everyone else) 'figure it out', but, since, admittedly, it is rather arcane (perhaps even what some might mistakenly call convoluted) I shall offer the following translation (though there may be others): WhoWouldNotPreferHisEnglishToBeConvoluted?. It could just as well stand for WhyWillNotPrinceHarryEverTravelByCamel?. Or for WhenWritingNeatlyPutHaphazzardTittlesBeforeComas. TYP!

______________________________________________________________

And, since you speak of 'this labyrinth' - 'labyrinth' and 'maze' are often taken to be synonymous. They aren't. A labyrinth has but one path that will lead to the centre and back out again. Such are the labyrinths on many mediaeval cathedral pavements. Entering into the path, one cannot fail to reach the centre and return. Some of the cathedral labyrinths (notably, that at Chartres) were thought by their makers to be copies of the famed Cretan labyrinth, which really wasn't a labyrinth, but a maze. When entering a maze, on the other hand, one encounters numerous paths and 'blind alleys' which may result in one getting lost or even not being able to exit. Such mazes are commonly made of hedges and are found in the gardens of many English country houses.

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