Just wanted to say something (Christmas Mass in Spanish at BNSIC)
  • vansensei
    Posts: 219
    It's at Communion right now, but if it's available for later watching, today's Spanish Christmas Mass from the BNSIC is almost required viewing for this section. Why?

    (Well, for starters, pretty much everyone is receiving on the tongue - but that's neither here nor there.)

    It has actual, very well-made Spanish polyphony and propers for the Mass. Organ and their fabulous choir. It's the first time I've seen such excellent music from a Spanish Mass. No guitars and quasi-Hillsong whatever. Why isn't there more of this in Hispanic parishes?

    Feliz navidad a todos en Jesucristo y la Virgen Maria,
    vansensei
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn Casavant Organist
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,508
    The history of sacred music will show, in years to come, that there have been a number of heroes.

    One is Peter Latona.
    Thanked by 4vansensei mmeladirectress Casavant Organist cmb
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    Kyrie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtCfSawZlWY&feature=youtu.be&t=7m24s
    Offertory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtCfSawZlWY&feature=youtu.be&t=1h3m0s

    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    - but that's neither here nor there.)


    If our music brings people closer to God, and as a result of that, they receive on the tongue, how is that "neither here nor there"?
  • Rphillips
    Posts: 40
    .
    Thanked by 2Jeffrey Quick PaxMelodious
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    While I agree that many parishes "do not have the resources in the budget..." I would also agree that many that have the resources squander them away on other things that may not be so important. Unfortunately, far too many parishes don't value good music. It isn't always the case that money isn't available.
    Thanked by 3francis M. Jackson Osborn Elmar
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,508
    Rphillips,

    How well do you feel SC 115 has been implemented?
  • JahazaJahaza
    Posts: 470
    "It is not fair to suggest that music that is attainable at the National Shrine should be the model for Spanish Music ministry in average parish churches"

    "nor to infer that average parish Spanish Musicians are playing quasi hillsong music because choral music like these examples is out of their reach."

    Aren't these somewhat contradictory?
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,325
    I, like Jazaha, am a bit confused here. What exactly are you trying to say about the Spanish-speaking volunteer musicians that you have personally encountered?

    For my part: don't you think that something in the mold of Rossini's 2-part, accompanied Canticum Novum, if it were excised of some dated chromaticisms and designed/adapted for Spanish texts, would be useful, attainable, and an upgrade for liturgies celebrated in Spanish?

    There need not be this dichotomy between elaborate, challenging music, suited for singers of high-ability and lowest common denominator, simplistic, faux-folk music for musicians of lesser ability. Almost anyone, if they apply themselves, could sing things like the settings in Canticum Novum, and I think that small/village parishes would benefit from a move in this direction. No, it's not high art music, but it's a darn sight better than a lot of pablum that's sung in many places today, supposedly due to volunteer musicians' "lack of ability." Often I think it's due to laziness and inertia. We can do better! We can do OUR best, rather than just throwing in the towel and settling because we know we can't attain the heights of the National Shrine, Ss. Peter and Paul Naperville, St. John Cantius Chicago, Ss. Simon and Jude Phoenix, et al.

    Make your garden grow, my friends.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    We have to be able to meet people where they are and help them make the most of their gifts and talents



    And then pastorally cultivate those talents towards singing sacred music.
    Thanked by 2Kathy eft94530
  • francis
    Posts: 10,818
    Gregorian chant is the easiest church music that exists. it requires no accompaniment, can be sung by amateurs and children, and is the official music of the Roman Rite. It is the first choice of music for the liturgy. You can learn it by listening to the many hundreds of recordings on the web. Don't fool yourself by accepting any substitutes. You can start there tomorrow and never exhaust the repertoire. It is all free, no strings attached and is found on our website in the music PDF section.
    Thanked by 5tomjaw WGS CCooze CHGiffen rich_enough
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    RPhillips,

    Is your difficulty with the idea that our music should always strive to be better, rather than "meet people where they are"?

    Having served as a teacher for two decades, I can confidently state that there are two distinct ways of "meeting people where they are". They are illustrated by the anecdotes:

    1) A student said to me, when I was newly on a job, that since he was dyslexic, he couldn't lose points for spelling mistakes on a spelling/vocabulary text in a foreign language. I replied that he was just going to jolly well learn how to spell. Several years later he told me that my response had so startled him because he was used to getting his way and continuing to be a bad speller, but that my insistence on a higher standard had encouraged him to respect me more, and to try harder in my class. He never became a top-shelf speller, but he did improve, and he put some effort into improving.

    2) In a parish where I worked part time, a colleague ( a non-musical one, that is, one whose duties were "early childhood education, not music) told me that to appeal to the young I (struggling through my late 20s) needed to have (what I translated as hi-sugar, hi-caffeine, Disney-movie-style) music. For three weeks I tried it as she had advised. We were trying to do "kiddie" music, with lots of games and such. The kids were miserable, hated the music I was told they would love, and found the experience un-edifying. On the fourth week, I decided to try my original plan. The kids loved it.

    3) Hakunah Mattatah (If I spelled that correctly, it's supposed, roughly, to translate, "Don't worry, be happy".)


    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    The example given of the Spanish mass is beautiful and commendable.
    The naysayer's voice isn't.

    Objective reality, as opposed to highly subjective and speculative assessments, will reveal that it takes no more talent or resources, no more being 'within reach' (sometimes even less!), to avail oneself of the Church's historic musical paradigm than the folksy and happy-clappy genres that are the elected norm in too many of our churches, regardless of their ethnicity. Indeed, if it has been suggested that certain persons would 'walk out' if presented with a better musical practice than is current in their parish, this would be a statement of very bad manners and shut minds, not of musical worth, nor of personal ability.

    This is a matter of choice, not of necessity. Whatever one's ability and resources, there is music from our heritage and its modern heirs which is within 'reach'. Sorry! It's not the music's fault.

  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    Other threads here have recently addressed the difficulties actually experienced in motivating choirs to improve. Rphillips has explained elsewhere that he has a choir whose repertoire
    includes everything from plainchant, to works by Palestrina, Josquin, Di Lasso and Faure.
    His despondency needs responses which show a path by which his actual Hispanic Choir might move forward. However I do not think what the OP said is a cause for despondency.
  • Rphillips
    Posts: 40
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    Thanked by 1nun_34
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Yes, I want to help my musicians become better. But this can mean making them better at their level, not trying to lift them to a level they have neither the training nor the talent to achieve.


    Totally agree. I have, for example, a bass from a family of fine singers. He has taken voice lessons and seriously wants to be able to sing. Unfortunately, the voice lessons did no good whatsoever, other than increase the size of his already too-large ego. He is now 82, and very hard of hearing. A pillar of the parish and I can't throw him out, even though his family members agree he can't sing. I just ignore it and realize he will either, (1) get too old to get up the loft stairs or (2) pass away. LOL. Such is parish music and good senses of humor and reality are requirements for the job.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Trying to take them to a different level can infer to them that we think something is wrong with them, and something is wrong with the music they cherish, neither of which results in a productive choir dynamic.


    Mr. Phillips,

    Yes, I recognize that one shouldn't insult the singers who are doing the best they think they can do. On the other hand, is our obligation, serving as we do in the Church's crafted liturgy, to balkanize the liturgy and the church, or to teach and accomplish what the Church deems most fitting for the worship of God? Remember: those who do not know God can't love Him, and we come to know God, at least in part, through the sacred rites, executed as the Church has handed on to us through Sacred Tradition.

  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    The secular community choir in which I sing (unauditioned, many not reading music, few with any voice training, amateur director) has a concert coming up in a fortnight. Judging by the rehearsal last week, we will probably attempt Grieg's Ave Maris Stella a capella, and probably need discreet accompaniment for Arvo Pärt's Morning Star. I do notice that we have lost a quarter of our female members to the ladies choir in town, during our autumn rehearsals. Even in a town of 7000 or so, with maybe 3000 in the hinterland, there are some who reject the challenge, and better singers who cannot be bothered with us.
  • Rphillips
    Posts: 40
    .
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Mr. Phillips,

    I grew up just north of Buffalo, N.Y., in which each section of town had its own, ethnic, parish. Our Lady of Czestojowa (apologies if I spelled that incorrectly) is in a different part of the city than St. Joseph's.

    There's nothing (NOTHING) wrong with giving each culture the opportunity for expression, and I didn't say otherwise. I would quibble with the broad and wide use of the term "mission lands", since that slippery application led to American publishers deciding that none of the actual stipulations of the Council documents needed to apply here.

    Of course, in the days of ethnic parishes in neighboring sections of town, the parish was the center of cultural life, too.

    Besides, you somehow focused the lens to avoid the "nevertheless" part of the "in mission lands" exception.

    Here's a quote from Holy Writ: "there is no God".

    Broadening out, we see, "The fool says in his heart there is no God".



    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,508
    I'd suggest that implementing SC 115 is a better idea than, you know, not implementing it.
    Thanked by 5M. Jackson Osborn a_f_hawkins Ben nun_34 eft94530
  • TimTheEnchanterTimTheEnchanter
    Posts: 205
    Since I work in a small, poor parish that has Spanish Mass, I can tell you I do not have the talent pool, nor the additional time (I have a full-time job and am choir organist at another parish), nor the pastoral support (he thinks they'll only sing with piano and guitar), available to do a tenth of what I would like to do. There's plenty of beautiful Spanish music out there, even in Flor y Canto, but much of it's beyond what I can do with what I have at the moment.

    But I'll tell you this: for Christmas, the pastor insisted on bilingual English/Spanish Mass (don't ask). But for whatever reason, he relented and let me use the organ (I had a guitarist as well; we didn't play at the same time, obviously). And I had a choir of maybe 14, half kids, all untrained, and I hired a friend to cantor and add harmonies. Most stuff was unison, though we did a couple 2-part choral pieces (the Davison setting of "A la nanita nana" and "Child of the Poor/What Child Is This," with the Spanish translation subbed in for "What Child Is This.") And you know what? For the talent we had and the time we had to prepare, it went very well.

    So Rphillips' situation is more or less what I have going on, and I completely get what he's saying. For my part, I would rather be proud of what my folks can do than despair at what we can't.
    Thanked by 5PaxMelodious CharlesW melofluent nun_34 eft94530
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    So Rphillips' situation is more or less what I have going on, and I completely get what he's saying. For my part, I would rather be proud of what my folks can do than despair at what we can't.


    Agreed. Some - and you know who you are - think every mass should rival a high TLM. It becomes a case of TLM good, all else not as good. Pretty unrealistic, as well as silly, don't you think? I work within a framework where I can do some incredibly good music, but I know where the limits are. And there are limits as to what the congregation and pastor will accept, the quality of singers I have, and the lack of funding for music in general. If I were not able to spend some of my own money on it, our music would be less than it currently is. Such is the real world of Catholic music.
    Thanked by 3TimTheEnchanter melofluent Olivier
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    Kathy: sure, as the saying is about flat-pack furniture :-
    if all else fails, try reading the instructions
    But I suspect implementing SC115 is beyond the pay grade of anybody on this forum.
    Thanked by 1Kathy
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    ...Pretty unrealistic, as well as silly, don't you think?...

    My agreement is partial.

    1. Unrealistic? Yes, in that the fullness of the Church's paradigm can not, at this moment, be realised everywhere - though (truth be known and admitted) it could be realised at an awful lot of places that spurn it outright, or are (sometimes deliberately) ignorant of it, or do not wish to spend their money on it, though they could easily find money for it if they wanted to (and there are plenty of such churches).

    2, No! Absolutely not! It's not silly. To think that it is is to harbour an adolescent disparagement of that which one wishes not to take seriously, though it demands to be taken seriously.

    3. No! Absolutement pas! I do not think so. Pity those that would.

    (In parting - due accolades are given to Charles, and many like him, who accomplish to the limits of what they feasibly can, often at personal expense. Too many don't.)
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Jackson, it is the Church itself that is silly when it comes to music. It doesn't mean what it says/writes. Consequently, those with the authority to make a difference don't do so.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn Olivier
  • henry
    Posts: 244
    I agree with Phillips when he said that Gregorian chant is not easy. My Spanish choir has resisted it for years and continues to resist it, even though I keep insisting. The melismas are very difficult for them. I've tried teaching it a phrase at a time, using CDs, etc. I'll keep trying, because, thank God, the Pastor told me to. The school kids have no problem with it.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    I've found that it is much easier to teach Gregorian chant to children than it is to teach it to adults. The problem I've found is that most adult choir members these days are accustomed to learning everything by rote and memory, and can't read their music. The benefit of starting younger is that you can teach them to read Gregorian notation by using solfeggio at the same time. Eventually, they learn to "follow the dots" as I say (and as is also my instruction to them). Although Gregorian chant is unarguably an oral tradition and was once learned completely by rote and memory, when compared to the normal fare that most adult choir members are used to today, it can seem overwhelming to think of having to memorize it, especially when another language is involved. All of that is, of course, just an explanation, and is no excuse for not attempting to learn it.
    Thanked by 3MarkS bonniebede eft94530
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    The school kids have no problem with it.

    That says it all.
    Their minds haven't been closed.
    Thanked by 5francis a_f_hawkins Scott_W eft94530 CHGiffen
  • francis
    Posts: 10,818
    so many minds are made up and have checked out.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn eft94530
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    At eight i fell in love with 'Tantum ergo' sung at Benediction and taught myself to sing it (in fact all of Pange lingua) out of an old missal I found lying around at home.
    I started in our parish folk group at fourteen. We played the typical songs of charismatic renewal, using mostly three chords, with guitars at Mass.
    At 19, with some better guitarists we started to do Taize chants. four part harmonies! Gorgeous. I really enjoyed that.
    Had a long hiatus where I sang a lot( at prayer meetings, as a participant) but rarely served in music ministry, though i taught myself to play the guitar (about half a dozen chords, so i can lead music and worship at a charismatic prayer meeting).
    At 40 started a new charismatic community in a city centre parish, where we went to Mass. They had a wonderful, paid choir of professional singers and paid an organist.They sang chant, polyphony, to a very high standard, although the priests never sang anything. In ireland i can only think of about three or four places in the country that pay an organist, and no other that pays singers. our little charismatic group listened in delight. The children loved it.
    Fell in love with Credo III and set myself the task of learning it. what are these little square notes anyway?
    At about 45, starting leading children in Eucharistic adoration. Wanted to teach them some music to sing during adoration, and discovered the booklet Jubilate Deo, and the Musica sacra website.
    5 years later, I can now teach two children's scholas, and some adults, read Gregorian chant, reasonably, have studied two years of Ward method, three years choral conducting (week long summer schools) have started to study music theory, organ, and singing.
    Exploring a little Renaissance polyphony with them too. We sing at Adoration every week, and also do one Sunday Mass (children and adults together, this is at a different parish now, without paid musicians). We sing some Gregorian chants, some good but simple hymns, and the priest is gradually learning his parts for the Mass, as we and the congregation learn the Ordinary (chant from the Missal).

    God has been good to me. I observe a number of things.

    Not everyone can be a fully trained, employed musician. but the world is not full of people all carefully placed according to skill. Volunteers and amateurs may have equal or even more potential musically, but not the experience or training due to life circumstances.

    Many musical people love all sorts of music because ,, well, its music. It all you have is simple hymns you will sing them with enthusiasm because it is still music, and you love the Lord too. If someone provides you with something better, you will love that too.

    Learning is a lifelong task. Given the scarcity of resources, employed church musicians should be those who want to teach and encourage not just those who are capable of performing to a high standard.

    it is somewhat insulting to suggest that amateur musicians, playing poor quality music are doing so because they have no aesthetic taste, or skill, or whatever. They may have no opportunity and no teachers.

    And finally. Teach the children.
    Thanked by 2PaxMelodious eft94530
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,798
    ...do not have the resources in the budget, nor the talent pool necessary to support and sing this music.
    So far I've heard no propers, but only a Kyrie for which the congregation was invited to sit for an a cappella rendition followed by a responsorial Gloria, Psalm, and 3-fold unison Alleluia joined by the congregation. So are we talking about the Offertory motet? The spoken Sursum corda? None of the service music seems to me harder than the typical Flor y Canto setting.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Deja vu....again.
    Don't insist the perfect always must be the enemy of the good, folks.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    Charles, thanked by Charles, counsels well not to let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
    One would caution, though, that there are those who are satisfied to let the good be the enemy of the perfect (or as near as we can get to it in this world) and not strive for it - or even forget about it or write it off.
    Don't be satisfied with 'good' when better is achievable.
    Always do your best and then some.
    And never forget about perfect.
    Thanked by 3bhcordova ClergetKubisz eft94530
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,508
    melo, you know I love you, but that maxim misses the point.

    Most Spanish language music programs in the US are not good. Perfect is completely out of the question. Good would be nice.
    Thanked by 2Jahaza eft94530
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    No qualms with Jackson or Kathy whatsoever. Perhaps the lens through which I envision is one of a moveable feast. Sometimes our efforts, striven as they are, are like Babette's Feast, other times as successful as a hot dog lunch at the rescue mission. Love you too, Kathy. Have to get down south to see you and MACW.
    Thanked by 1Kathy
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    ...misses the point...

    In fact, one is puzzled as to just what the point is!
    I think that most here do their very best and strive to do better, to grow, and to come closer to the Church's paradigm even incrementally if necessary.
    But, I don't see what the point of perfection in relation to the paradigm or one's performance being the enemy of the good is.
    In no way is perfection (whatever we might mean by that!) ever an enemy at all.
    It is a friend.
    It is the sun from which the energy of legitimacy and authenticity is derived, in the shadow light of which the good even has meaning.
    I usually see this tired 'maxim' (if, indeed, it is a maxim - I think that it really isn't) as a write off of what lies ahead of all our 'goods' and 'bests' yet to be arrived at.
    This doesn't mean that what is good today, right now, is without merit.
    It does mean not to let it be the enemy of the perfect.
    This, I think, is really the greater danger.
    Thanked by 1Kathy
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,508
    The other issue that must be addressed at some point is the blatant overuse of liberation theology in some of the Spanish hymnals.

    People deserve better.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    People deserve better.

    Interesting, isn't it?, that what 'liberators' want to impose on people, countries, cultures, the poor, etc., is most often a deliverance into a greater bondage than that in which they had been (if indeed they had been in bondage at all).
    It shouldn't pass without notice that those who would have it that if you join us you don't have to believe this that and the other onerous doctrine, you don't have to obey the old pope, and on and on, but that you do have to believe what 'liberators' believe and live under their system and are not free to believe or do otherwise.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Never understood liberation theology and certainly don't understand the current pope. I hope he is Catholic, but have my days when I wonder about that.

    Of course, what he says is not what he really meant to say, and we didn't understand and must have the appropriate Vatican spokesman explain what Francis really meant. Heard it all before.

    Perfect as enemy of the good? There is no perfection on this earth. Good may be as close as we can get to it. What some propose as perfect is tied to the 1962 missal and its rubrics. Whether they like it or not, that is not the official and normative rite of the Church in the U.S. or anywhere else. The Roman Missal has been rewritten, revised, and reformulated since then and sometimes doesn't much reflect rites and practices in effect in 1962.

    What is not good is the wholesale ignoring of the rubrics and supporting documents behind the current missal. Too many are simply doing as they please.

    I have nothing against the TLM or the 1962 missal. It is now the exception, not the rule and is not a standard of perfection to measure current rites against. Now let the wailing and gnashing of trad teeth begin. LOL.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    .

  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    There's that dot again. LOL
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    TLM or the 1962 missal ... is not a standard of perfection
    Very true, that's why VII called for revision.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    TLM or the 1962 missal ... is not a standard of perfection

    Very true, that's why VII called for revision.


    A F Hawkins' equivocation is fascinating, I'll let that pass for now.

    Charles asserts that it is wrong to use the TLM/1962 Missal as a standard to measure other rites. I agree.... but Pope Benedict insists that the 1962 and 1970 Missal represent 2 forms of the same rite.

    Charles,

    Would you propose a standard of perfection of the 1970 Missal?
    (Here are some options, but don't feel limited to these):

    a) The way the Anglican Ordinariate celebrates, in Houston.
    b) Phoenix's Cathedral's ars celebrandi.
    c) Anywhere at all, so long as Fr. Rutler is present.
    d) His Holiness Pope Francis' Triduum.
    e) your own parish.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    That's the problem with standards, they are all over the place - and from place to place. The Anglicans have their own rite. I'm not concerned with the 1970 missal. I am using the 2010 which was implemented in 2011. That is the current Roman Missal.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Charles,

    Don't dodge the question,
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,311
    Yeah, but it’s the rite promulgated by Missale Romanum which is in the front, whereas Quo Primum is not.

    The tradition is the measuring stick. And the best revision, in hindsight, isn’t necessarily 1962. I think that it is not, actually, but we must start there, for the most part. That the traditional rite is the exception and not the rule, well, that’s the exception. The diversity of medieval rites is a distraction. It isn’t like those were concocted by cutting and pasting. They developed from the rites brought by the first missionaries and the customs of places and religious orders, and they all share parts like the Canon of the Mass.

    I add St. Mary’s, Norwalk to CGZ’s list. Also, they have a Spanish Mass.

    I agree about the cultural domination of Spanish speakers in America and that the music is often utter garbage.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Charles,

    Don't dodge the question,


    What question did you ask? With you, it's hard to tell.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    The diversity of medieval rites is a distraction


    I think it has been distracting to the point of confusion for some time. However, I work with the missal and rubrics I have been given. There are several earlier rites and missals that have been replaced. All haven't been suppressed, but in effect are no longer the norm for the mainstream church.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,798
    Thanks Chonak for the links, and thanks vansensei for trying to start a discussion of music in Spanish. I've learned that "hillsong" is a fighting word, rather than (as I imagined) something PBS airs during pledge week, and very little besides. But given the thread title, I can't really complain we've gone off topic, can I?
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Would you propose a standard of perfection of the 1970 Missal?


    (Even has a question mark at the end of it.)
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