What skills should every sacred musician have?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    One of the issues I have with improvisations is that I have heard them turn into performances.


    Quoting my own post, my organ professor said that if you pull on the chamade trumpet during communion, they will notice. Appropriate improvisation, when needed can add to the liturgy. Showing off draws attention away from the liturgical action and puts it on yourself. Not a good thing.
  • Showing off...

    And..... just what constitutes 'showing off'? I have heard some respond to a beautifully played mass by someone who really, musically, 'knew what he was talking about', with daft comments such as 'well, I'm not a concert organist, I'm just a church organist playing for the glory of God', or 'the organist is just showing off'. There are, of course, an infinite number of variations on such vacuous remarks. The implication is that anything really good musically is 'showing off', anything beyond an amateur's limitations is 'showing off', anything I can't do, or don't wish to learn how to do, is 'showing off', or, even, anything that caught my attention and was well done is 'showing off', etc., etc., ad infinitum. All of us could, doubtless, add to this list of cretinesque pouts.

    The only thing that I can think of that would be showing off would be something that was badly played and should not have been played. Our great colleague, Charles, has mentioned the chamade during communions. I would aver that, in the hands of one who really knew what he or she was 'talking about', even the chamade could at some rare moments be brought into play, yes, even during communions. The crucial, and deciding, factor is that the organist has caught on to the unique and never-to-happen-again spiritual air of the moment and has expressed it musically. Yes, it's conceivable (but not often likely) that a plenum as a brief climax could be just the thing. One senses the air and fills it with what is momentarily appropriate. Those who aren't so talented, or who are out to lunch when it comes to musical poetry gracing the moment, will fasten onto the old 'showing off' cant and, Grinch-like, will spoil everything, chamade-like showing off for all to see their own ignorance.

    The only 'showing off' is, normally, poor playing of what should not have been played. Silence is always better than poorness. When we are engaged in ritual we bring forth the finest of our talents, and the finest of talents which we can employ. We don't say of the priest who is wearing a fine Belgian cloth of gold chasuble embroidered by the hands of choice nuns that he is showing off, or that the nuns are showing off, etc. Nay, if we can afford it it is an appropriate offering and an apt expression of loving sacrifice, expressing the splendid beauty of God. With music it is no different. Our music is a rare embroidery in sound, lovingly stitched by the highly talented hands which God created just for that purpose. It is as appropriate that we should be in breathtaken awe of it as we are of those rare and costly vestments in the sanctuary. After all, the servant who 'showed off' what he had done with his 'talents' is the one with whom his master was pleased.

    Thanked by 2Ben Richard Mix
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    I think we all know what showing off is. It's drawing attention away from the liturgical action and trying to be the star of the show. It's like porn, I know it when I see(hear) it. Music should complement, not detract from the liturgy - not that musicians could ever have large egos - no way!
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Of course, one needn't improvise to show off. One merely needs to do something like this during Holy Communion....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoCW2Nho7bk
    Thanked by 2CharlesW Ben
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Love that piece, but not what I would think of as communion fare. Same with the chamades. Use them for the Sanctus where they are a better fit. I keep communion time rather quiet and meditative. Our people have told us they want to pray at that time, so I try to make it conducive to prayer.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    CharlesW

    And choice of repertoire is not much different than choice of improvisation....
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    In the hands of someone sensitive to the flow of liturgy, both can work. Unfortunately, I have heard some real extremes.
  • I have found that continuing practicing Bach aids in the fluidity of improvisations that happen to occur before, during, and after the mass. Typically I progress harmonically as in whichever hymn happens to be on the music stand. Things of complete invention happen occasionally too that are satisfying to resolve and transition succinctly to whatever is going on... for instance the handing out of crosses to the catechumens, or other things which occupy an intra-liturgical space during which you've reasoned to have music also occur. I think it's a dying art, and those spaces are being filled with choir acclamations as well now. I think some take it way too far as to intrude into what people are used to listening to unaccompanied.

    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • During communion -
    I have played everything from Bach's kommst du nun vom Himmel herunter during Advent or Christmastide, nun freut euch at Eastertide, etc., to French recits de cromorne, or tierces en taille, or duos pour this and that at various -tides and non-tides, to Frescobaldi ricercars and such, to Langlais' three inner movements from the Suite Mediavale at various -tides and non-tides, selections from Tournemire's L'orgue mystique, and anything else of a similar nature; and, of course, generous in their number are appropriate choices from the organ chorale literature. The list, from the gamut of organ literature, is very lengthy. Some ungrateful persons would doubtless dub any or all of these 'showing off' - my response is to 'shrug them off'. My improvisations have been in the style of any of the above, or my own style. Very rarely has an improvisation had a 'peak' which featured a very brief crescendoed plenum at just the right moment, or even a climactic short trumpet melody that had a very poignant effect. A sense of poetry and an uncanny sense for the spiritual air of the moment will determine the aptness of any of the above. What one does not wish to do is to play this or that just to be playing it - yes, this would be 'showing off'. Nor should one try to do what one cannot do well.

    Another, unmentioned, factor is the size and acoustic of the church - not to mention the qualities of sound to be had from one's organ. These will play their part in one's judgment, for they, ultimately, will determine the sonic and poetical effect of what one plays.

    The fundamental mood at this moment within the rite is of profound, intense, reverence and gratitude which may, with judicious discretion, take the form of holy joy - hence Bach's nun freut euch and such. Everything, no matter what it is, must be well done - very well done.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • On of the issues I have with reasoning is that some people draw incorrect conclusions.
  • tsoapm
    Posts: 79
    Quite: that’s just what I thinking about this comment:
    We don't say of the priest who is wearing a fine Belgian cloth of gold chasuble embroidered by the hands of choice nuns that he is showing off
    People outside the Church actually say this not infrequently; whereas it is perfectly defensible, it still has the potential for scandal (c.f. Rm 14). I think though that musical “showing” off is probably less likely to draw such criticism.

    P.S. How does one define a “choice nun”? The mind boggles.
    Thanked by 1PaxMelodious
  • Mostly criticism by other musicians. The lay non musical population might raise an eyebrow.
  • If I may speak in a more pedestrian manner than Adam.

    Improvisation on the organ isn't identical to improvisation in a Jazz idiom. Each is an appropriate kind of improvisation in its proper context, but neither would be welcome in the other's house.
    Thanked by 1Continuousbass
  • Alas! Chris is, methinks, a little hopeful.

    It would be nice if sacred and secular-styled music were appropriate each in its proper context.

    The truth is (relative to probably a generous majority of our churches) that sacred music is not appropriate in its presumed context.

    It is the secular-styled music that is as appropriate in sacred precincts as well as at the sporting event.

    Sacred music is not considered appropriate anywhere - in church or anywhere else.

    Can you just imagine the hue and cry, and the booing and hissing that would greet Palestrina or Bach at a sporting event?

    Why, it might rival the booing that greets genuine sacred music at mass in many, very, very many churches - by those in and not in holy orders, even by some who wear mitres.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Can you just imagine the hue and cry, and the booing and hissing that would greet Palestrina or Bach at a sporting event?
    It might cause kneeling...
  • Jackson,

    I'm speaking of the norm, in the sense of what SHOULD be, not what is.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    Bach at a sporting event? Toccata and fugue in D minor on a calliope? Yes I can imagine that accompanying teams onto the pitch.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Mr Hawkins -
    Curious you should mention the Toccata and Fugue in D-Minor -
    when I wrote the above I started to add 'except maybe for his D-Minor Toccata and Fugue'.
    There is something vulgar about that piece that seems to enchant great numbers of people.
    From my first hearing or reading of it I didn't like it at all.
  • MarkS
    Posts: 282
    Mr. Osborn,

    I thought our current understanding was that Bach didn't write that piece— is was rather the work of an anonymous member of the 'Bach circle.' So, possibly another example of your innate good taste!
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Toccata and Fugue in D-Minor


    The only time I hear that piece is around Halloween. It has come to be identified with that holiday since it has the "haunted house" sound. I haven't heard anyone use it as a concert piece in many years.
  • I think that the first time I heard it live was at a recital by Virgil Fox (he of the rhinestone shoes) given at the Church of St John the Divine here in Houston. That, in itself, was the kiss of death.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    The opening measures of the toccatta would be fantastic for a baseball game, as a closing pitcher with a 108mph fastball takes the mound.
  • About the Toccata and Fugue - have you heard it on the violin?
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,191
    With regards to improvisation: it is a blessed useful skill and has been encouraged by many schools of organ playing with the French taking it to incredible heights. I'm offended by any notion that says it is not a useful skill for service playing. As one who regularly has to improvise, it makes for wonderful moments in the liturgy when I take the antiphons or some other theme and use it as a basis for my improvisation. For Catholics in particular, we have many moments when indeterminate lengths of time need the organ for improvisation.

    For those unaware, the great French organist Marcel Dupre gave us a course of study in improvisation, in such things as harmony, form of pieces and developments to guide the learner. However, in the end, Louis Armstrong is correct when asserts that one can or cannot improvise. Its all in the soul of the player.

    I once heard Louis Robillard say that anyone can play pieces on the organ but a true organist must improvise. Amen..deo gratias.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    I think the size of your church may have something to do with whether or not you routinely improvise. When one hymn stanza gets a procession from back to front of the building, there is no space for improvisation. A tightly constructed mass in a small space leaves little time for it in the mass, either. If you are in St. Sulpice, improvise away. You will have plenty of time for it.

    Added note: The last time I really improvised was when a gentleman passed out in one of the front pews. Everything came to a halt while nurses were treating him, and the ambulance EMTs carried him out on a stretcher. I improvised until the mass resumed. No one has had a medical emergency since, so I don't know when I will need to do it again.
  • No one has had a medical emergency since.

    Could this, um, be due to not wanting hear you improvise again?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980

    Could this, um, be due to not wanting hear you improvise again?


    He was probably a musty old Anglican with a bad heart. Either that or he thought he was at Walsingham and the stuffy atmosphere did him in. We don't get too many of those, so that opportunity is rare.

    As I have said, the masses are so tightly constructed, there is no extra time built into them. Something has to disrupt the flow to create time, and it's good that doesn't happen often. I think we really have a unique situation.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • a secondary slate of qualifications for village churches or those whose means and resources really are limited - meaning those which aren't cathedrals or parishes of means.>

    Does this refer to small parishes, like rural and small town, say in the South? I'm trying to apply this discussion to my situation and can't find much of anything that fits or is anywhere close to fitting. Organs are very rare here--lots of keyboards, banjos and guitars.Two particular Catholic parishes I'm familiar with here:

    Parish 1: Has an organ. Organist is a parish member. Pastor controls the "style": "traditional" with organ (twice/month), LifeTeen with guitars (once/month), "contemporary" with guitars (once/month). Choir members sing for organ Masses and the "contemporary" Mass--75% do not know how to read music. Choir director (who is not the organist) just tries to get the choir to sing the hymns/songs in unison.

    Parish 2: Has a keyboard. Pianist is Presbyterian, having zero familiarity with anything Catholic. Plays everything, including chant, theatrically. No music/choir director--just a list of volunteer "cantors", 90% of whom do not read music. On any given Sunday, music can be a combination of Latin, meaningless campfire songs, "traditional" hymns, and Sunday school ditties.

    How does anything in the above discussion speak to our situation? Maybe it doesn't which I can understand.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    How does anything in the above discussion speak to our situation? Maybe it doesn't which I can understand.


    It doesn't, really. I understand what you are dealing with.
  • Back to the OP:
    I am in the process of creating some courses for my diocese and would like your input.

    What should any sacred musician know? Any particular standards they should be achieveing etc.?


    Do you have any small/rural parishes in your diocese? What can you offer them?

    My suggestions would include the following:

    1. Musicians in Catholic parishes must be Catholic.
    2. They must be familiar with Church documents on liturgy and music.
    3. They must know what is and what is not sacred music.
    4. They must be skilled in their instrument (e.g. voice, organ, trumpet, etc) or position (e.g. directing).
    5. They must be willing to learn, to listen, to serve.

    This is basic, but I would be one happy Catholic parishioner if I found all the above at our parish.
  • My suggestion would include the following:

    Your numbers 1-6 are good elementary basics for musicians, but also for priests. Too few priests are really ritually, liturgically, and musically brilliant. Nos. 1, 2, 3 and 5, in particular, apply to priests as well as musicians. (And, yes, sometimes even number one!)
    If a priest has not benefitted from appropriate liturgical formation, he will have no idea, really, of what to look for in appointing a musician, especially one who can and will provide true Catholic ritual music.

    A less than musically knowledgeable priest will often appoint musicians who mirror his lack of expertise or regrettable taste. It takes a genuinely great man to know his weaknesses and surround himself with those who are competent to supply what he lacks.

    There are two kinds of teachers: 1) those who make clones of themselves out of their students, and 2) those who recognise their students' native genius and teach them how to bring it to flower.

    Some priests do indeed treat their staff like the second category of teachers.
    Too many are like the first.

  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,164
    Are we assuming that a church choir member and a church musician are two different things? If so, why? (Especially since in another thread it was agreed that singers are musicians.)
  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    I follow a seven page long customal of what I need to know as music secretary (female version of director of music). One of the things I think has really added to our masses is that there is a requirement that the organist be of the denomination of the church, and available to participate actively in the church's community and if not be willing and available to pray with the congregation in other church events not requiring organ.
    Of course the usual applies, organ capabilities, sight reading and sight transposing capacity, ability to repair simple organ damage, a good singing voice, be able to read and accompany chant, and conduct polyphony.
    In my audition I was given a book about 30 pages long and asked to sight read various pieces, sight transpose, improvise the melody in the style of..., play and sing the lowest voice at the same time. It was rigorous and in my opinion overkill but because I could do everything they asked at a reasonable standard my boss trusts me.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    I don't think organists or directors need to be Catholic. Two of the best liturgists I have known in my area are Presbyterian and Episcopalian, respectively. Both have a better sense of liturgy than most Catholic musicians I have known.
  • Music is integral to praying the Mass. That is why I think musicians at a Catholic Mass should be Catholic. Music can be played by anyone. Sacred music at Mass is not just played; it is offered. There's a difference.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    An Episcopalian I know is both a better musician, and a better Catholic than most who call themselves by that name. Why she hasn't formally converted, is for her to answer. However, she lives and adheres to doctrines many if not most Catholics reject. Go figure. You can put a label on a pig, and you still have a pig, with a label attached.
  • ...a better musician, and a better Catholic than...
    Pelucid!
    It happens all the time.