While I sympathize with your frustration, Frogman, I must disagree with your plan.

This is my plan: take small steps, train new leaders,do everything well and cheerfully. People don't always recognize the solution to all their problems. Be patient.

My God is an awesome God la la la la la la.....

Kathy, I'm not sure what kind of plan I espoused! What I was saying is that while some people say they have left the church over music....so really have. And it is sad.

Now for a plan....first small step, silence after Communion, no announcements, blessing and dismissal and the organ plays. Fix the end of Mass first. People walk out during communion because they don't want to be there for the rest, which can include up to 5 minutes of rambling announcements about things people forgot to submit to the bulletin. Raise the Mass above the mundane.

Once it works, people stop complaining. The necessary ingredient is having the support necessary to bring things along to the point where they work. I suppose that's where my situation is most unusual: the degree of support.

...

Is this the:

"Our God is an awesome God He reigns
From heaven above......

La la la

Our God is an Awesome God"

And that song is an awful song.

Gavin,

What is this "Anglo-Catholic Church" you are speaking about? Is it Anglican Orthodox, TAC, or ECUSA or whatever else is out there?

Well, you guys are much better on this. Not behind at all. I couldn't understand what they are singing at all. It was all mumbling and suddenly shouts out. So 'cool.'
I questioned to my priest about this song, and he didn't have much objection, because 'awe' is a right word for God, he says. I couldn't expain it well how it's presented, like my buddy so and so is awesome, so is God. And also the music!(musical part is harder to explain.)

Let's make a distinction, Daniel.

On one hand, that description of Anglo-Catholics as "Protestants with a great love for many aspects of Catholicism" fits many people.

On the other hand, one international group of traditionalist Anglicans, the Traditional Anglican Communion, has adopted Catholic teaching in full, so it's not really fitting to speak of them as Protestants.

Their leaders declared that they believe everything in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and to express this publicly, they signed a copy and gave it to Abp. DiNoia of CDF.

And in their contacts with the Church, they are placing no pre-conditions on their entry into full communion: they have simply asked the Holy See how to proceed.

In the US, the TAC is represented by the "Anglican Church in America", so if this rapprochement becomes complete, those are the congregations who would be entering into full communion. It's not a huge body, probably a few dozen congregations around the US.

From the news today, it seems the talk about a personal prelature is just another rumor. A CDF official told the NC Register correspondent that nothing's been decided.

Which begs the question of "How many supposedly Roman Catholics are really Protestant in all but name?"

Everybody has been very prickly this week, all over the Net. I don't know if it's sadness over events in Washington, worry about the economy, or just some kind of Superbowl effect. But it doesn't help to take out our anger on each other. It also doesn't help to get all angry about chant. You don't sell something by screaming at people, "You ignoramuses and heretics! Bow to the greatness of chant because I say so!" You have to be winning, or at least give chant room to speak for itself.

These people are not your enemies. They are your future schola members, your future students, your future supporters. God has given them into your hands, to care for and to care for the music in days to come. They will never know any better if you don't show them.

Maureen,

To put it politely, I don't know where you are coming from? I'm not at all sad over events in Washington. No one on this page is angry about chant.

If we are railing it is against people who are against chant...and these people will not and cannot be shown. You can lead a horse to water and he will stand there, but he WILL NOT KICK YOU AND BITE YOU for because you took him to water....

These are the people who want to sing the Ave Maria by Schubert, Be Not Afraid and other stuff at funerals because that's what they have always done!

I wonder what would happen if Rome mandated that, starting in one week, all music at Mass must be Gregorian chant? I'm sure about half the members of the faith would declare that they were leaving the church, sit out one week, and be back the next. Only a few rabid "Church-open-to-the-world" types would find somewhere else to go.

BTW has everyone been reading the vitriol being expressed towards Benedict XVI? I know that he is strong enough to take it, but he deserves our prayers at this time. Those who know nothing have no clue where the focus of his decision was. To many who already hate Catholicism, this just added "holocaust deniers" to "child molesters" as the defining qualities of our Church.

Mass is such a Beautiful gift from God. It's a shame that we are ruinning that beautiful gift by tailoring it to fit into our taste. No wonder people cannot see the beauty and appreciate it anymore. Only if people can see it as the most wonderful and most beautiful gift on this earth from above, we don't have to 'encourage' them to come to the mass anymore.
But for many these days, it's just one more thing to do on Sunday, or an event to choose from a sports game or other recreational activities. The music has a lot to do with this by our mixing recreational music with music that is sacred. The function of recreational music on this earth is not to glorify God and sanctify people. (By the way, I like all sorts of recreational music, but outside the church.)

This is a Roman Catholic forum, and I , as an Anglican, have carefully avoided engaging in debates over issues about which Roman Catholics and Anglicans can be assumed to disagree. For example, although I do not consider myself a protestant, I have never attempted to persuade people here that I am not.

Chonak, however, made a statement that I believe to be demonstrably false. He wrote: "On the other hand, one international group of traditionalist Anglicans, the Traditional Anglican Communion, has adopted Catholic teaching in full, so it's not really fitting to speak of them as Protestants."

The Traditional Anglican Communion is dominated by extreme evangelicals. They have adopted the English Prayer Book of 1662 and the 39 Articles of Religion as a doctrinal standard. Its members have agreed to disagree about ordination of women, eucharistic theology, and much else. The Anglo-Catholics who have allied themselves with the group have nothing in common with the others except their condemnation of homosexual relations.

The 1662 Prayer Book is far more Protestant than any Prayer Book used in the American Episcopal Church since the Revolution. Furthermore, the 1979 American Prayer Book, at the time it was adopted, was by far the most Catholic book adopted by any province since the Reformation. It relegated the 39 Articles--filled with Reformation polemic--to an appendix of historical documents. To say that the Traditional Anglican Communion is Catholic and ECUSA is not is patently absurd.

If one of the TAC bishops did, indeed, say that he (or TAC) subscribed to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, you may rest assured that the majority of his peers would disagree with him vehemently.

The TAC schism is ridiculous. In a communion that has always accommodated a wide variety of theological positions--even to the point of tolerating plain heresy (such as the teaching of Jack Spong, my former bishop), schism over an ethical issue, viz., whether homosexual relations are compatible with Christian principles, is absurd. What is more absurd is that the TAC bishops agree to disagree about almost everything else. Their common stand on this one issue is all that unites them.

Those who believe that only those in communion with Rome are Catholics will, of course, say that neither TAC or ECUSA is Catholic.

If the Catholic Faith is defined as that body of doctrine which was generally accepted throughout the church before the 1054 schism and, especially, that which was articulated by the seven ecumenical councils, then the Episcopal Church--far less ambiguously than the Traditional Anglican Communion--teaches the Catholic Faith in its formularies. (See "How the Episcopal Church Teaches the Catholic Faith" at www.gracechurchinnewark.org. At the same site see also the article by the esteemed theologian, John Macquarrie, on what still separates Anglican and Roman Catholics.)

Of course, many Episcopalians--the majority, in fact--do not hold the Catholic Faith. Many Roman Catholics also do not hold the Catholic Faith. ECUSA does teach it, however. "Legem credendi lex statuat supplicandi"--Prosper of Aquitaine.

"People can pray for my return to Catholicism all they like. But it seems to me more productive to give people a faith worth taking seriously so that they don't feel inclined to leave."

If i'm crossing the border line of you personal space, please forgive me, Gavin. (Although I learned that personal spaces of Americans are much larger than those of Orientals, I still have to get used to it.) I believe our Church needs every bit of efforts from someone like you to bring back the sacredness to our liturgy. You are a talented musician, God gave you the talent and the chance to study, and know a lot about faith. God wants you to do something for Him. No? But you are outside the church. There are lots of good priests who need help from lay people, because their superiors might not agree with their 'Pastoral' decisions. I hope you don't feel pressure, but I'm going to pray for you and all the musicians who left the church because of the frustrations and disappoinments in doing their music ministry work. You can do a lot to help in giving people a faith worth taking seriously so that they don't feel inclined to leave. : )

If anyone unfamiliar with the various continuing-Anglican groups would like a beginner's guide to the subject, the Christianity Today blog published a "taxonomy" of them in 2006.

I recently made a list of groups and denominations in that category and came up with 21 (but there are a couple dozen more, really), so distinguishing this alphabet soup of churches is a bit like that Monty Python routine about the Judean People's Front vs. the People's Front of Judea, etc.

Brian, the emailer was wrong. You had at least one accomplice (the emailer).

"I am teaching the history of chant to our 1-8th graders, and guiding their respective cognitions towards what we know to be true:"

Hi, do you teach this as a part of music class (or religion)? I'd like to know more about this.

And what you said is very true. I'm reading 'Catholic Music,' by E. Schaefer, recommaneded in another thread, and found very informative. He gives practical guides for the future 'Sung Mass' for different parishes.

Wow, I am very impressed, and interested in another thing, maybe , for my future 'work.' This is much much thorough study than just singing chants. I love it! Last week, a high school religion teacher (someone I don't know) sent an email asking whether I could come to the class and talk about chants for seniors. This is a good opportunity to spread chants, but I was a bit over whelmed. Because there's so much I want to talk about, but I want to give them something they can remember. Your post gives me good ideas. And in the future I might be interested in going back to teaching children as a music teacher, if I do, it will be very different from what I did in the past. Please keep posting.(You might want to start a new thread.) I'm sure many people here will benifit from it. Thank you so much.
( So parents don't ask why you don't teach any other 'normal' songs? When I did Ward method in the past, I had a bit , very minor, of problem parents asking that. But I didn't have time to do all in a short period.)

My parish has no problem with chant, they just want to do other things, too. They actually like chant.

Mine is the lady who always asks if we can sing, "The Old Rugged Cross" on Good Friday. Of course, we can't. The pastor would not approve. It's not just the pastors who leave. A high percentage of school teachers leave education within 5 years of starting teaching. As a teacher, I can understand that. You are right about some parishes having a reputation for being difficult. It seems around these parts, that the wealthier the parish, the more likely it will be difficult.

Therein lies the fundamental fault line of Vatican II. Was it really necessary to open the Church to the world? Was this not a failure of the Church to entice the world to the Church? What is done is done and must be seen as God's will, but men are so capable of error that perhaps the New Liturgical Movement is God's way of knocking on the door of the Church and asking us to fix what may have been decisions based on worldly pressures rather than His plan. A Church that seeks relevance in the world is asking to become irrelevant.