Divine Worship: The Missal - tones for the Epistle and Gospel?
  • stulte
    Posts: 355
    For those more familiar with the Ordinariate's Missal, could you tell me where to find the tones for the Subdeacon and Deacon to use when chanting the 1st and 2nd Readings and the Gospel? Or, is this not done at a Solemn High Mass in the Ordinariate's Use? Thank you.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Stulte,

    I'll let an Ordinariate specialist answer for sure, but I think it would be reasonable to use the Epistle and Gospel tones from the Liber Usualis.
    What do you mean "not done at a Solemn High Mass"?
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn Ben
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,316
    Chris, a problem that I have yet to see satisfactorily answered is how a community which prefers the Tridentine ceremonial can use it with this missal in light of clear changes in the GIRM. That includes being allowed to sing or not sing the readings.

    Yes, we used the L.U. tones (solemn for the Gospel) in Indy for a Solemn Mass with Divine Worship. You can use the prophecy tone for the Old Testament or chant it on one note, but, and I know some might disagree, the 2010 tone in the English Roman Missal is vastly inferior. It was significantly tweaked (just as the collect tone was…) and doesn’t even have a proper final cadence. Somehow it was used (accidentally, I am sure) at the Colloquium, and it was a distraction for those who know the difference.
    Thanked by 1Ben
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    At Walsingham we use the tones as may be found in LU. There are Sarum variants, but, alas, I can't get every thing done that ought to be done. On all solemnities the prophecy is sung by a vested instituted lector who sits 'in choir', and the epistle by the sub-deacon.

    There are also Sarum variants of the collect tones, with the celebrant ending on do-ti and the Amen being sung ti-do do. We should be doing this, too... but alas.

    Matthew is, unfortunately, quite right about the English RM's version of the prophecy tone being all wet. I would never use it. Obviously, they either didn't know what they were doing, or deliberately produced an inferior work without historical reference. Someone told me that the botched final cadence was owing to the NO's 'thanks be to God', which follows, but I fail to see how this really makes any sense at all. At Walsingham we continue to use the tone in its historic form.
    Thanked by 1stulte
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,022
    If you have ever heard Deacon Barnett from Our Lady of Walsingham chanting the Gospel at Ordinariate Masses, he gets them from me. I have them in my computer they way we chanted them at OLW when I was there. And I took them from Jackson had taught us. I've also made some adjustments to the new Gospel announcement versicle, which is quite different from what we used to do. Send me a PM and I'm happy to share.
    Thanked by 3M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen stulte
  • stulte
    Posts: 355
    @Chris - what I meant by that question is that I was unsure if the readings were chanted during a SHM in the Ordinariate's Use. After posting this, I did some looking on YouTube where I saw a video of the Ordinariate's Mass according to DW:TM where the 1st reading was read, but the epistle was chanted which I thought interesting.
    @Steve - Thank you. I'll send you a PM soon.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    ...first reading was read, but the epistle was chanted...

    This wasn't at Walsingham!
    Nor is it normative in the Ordinariate Use.
    On 'normal' Sundays the lectionary is said.
    On all solemnities it is sung.
  • stulte
    Posts: 355
    That's correct. It was at another church. That's interesting that the readings are spoken instead of chanted on "normal" Sundays. Is there a specific reason why?
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,316
    I’m curious too. I find it disjarring if the lections are read, especially if the dialogue is sung and the ceremonies are used for the Gospel.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    You are both academically correct, and were I to be satisfied totally the lectionary would be sung always. I suppose that this is, in the minds of our decision makers in these matters, something that would be 'too much' - sad, but probably thought to be a needed nod to contemporary 'culture', such as it is. Even for the Easter Vigil, my suggestion that ALL the readings be sung, not just the epistle and gospel, that was thought 'too much'.

    At least we have made progress and Bishop Lopes is firmly behind it. Walsingham has sung all three readings on solemnities for over 30 years, since it was founded, a regimen that I first introduced as the founding choirmaster. The very first thing that Bishop Lopes' recent predecessor, our first 'ordinary', did was to tell us to stop doing it. Utter betrayal! A stab in the back! The first thing we got permission for from Bishop Lopes was to resume doing it. (Actually, permission for this was the very first thing that Fr Hough asked for, whilst driving back from the airport at Bishop Lopes' arrival.)
    Thanked by 6MatthewRoth stulte Steve Collins BruceL CHGiffen Andrew_Malton
  • stulte
    Posts: 355
    That's good that Bishop Lopes is behind resuming chanting the readings on Solemnities. What still puzzles me is the question of "What are the rubrics concerning this?" Is it not allowed to chant the readings unless it's a SHM? Or, does it depend on the rank of the feast? It does seem a bit fluid (which I understand stems in part from the varied liturgical practices of the communities/parishes that have come into the Ordinariate) at first glance.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,316
    It’s following the GIRM and Musicam Sacram. I don’t think there’d be a problem doing a Missa Cantata wherein one sings whatever is sung in the traditional Latin Mass and nothing more or less..
    Thanked by 1BruceL
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    Still and all -
    it's wonderful, isn't it, the sort of things that we have to complain about at Walsingham!
    Wouldn't it be nice if all of us could only complain that all of our readings are only sung on every solemnity instead of every Sunday?
    Or that the celebrant is singing the collects to the Roman tone rather than the Sarum one??
    Or that the choir sang the wrong final cadence to the Introit's psalm?
    Oh, and it took Bishop Lopes a few Sundays to get his sursum corda sung Anglican-style to the traditional age-old formula rather than that pitifully, wretchedly, botched one that every one else (unembarrassingly!) uses for the English Novus Ordo.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,316
    Well, in the defense of the 2011 Missal: it’s a proper tone, the ferial tone, which is inappropriate for 90% (I am exaggerating here) of sung Masses, because they are either Sunday Masses or festal. It should be used for Masses of ferias, and usually in Advent and Lent only, since you will probably not have a sung Mass on a green feria, which are rare anyways, and Masses for the dead. Oh, sung Votive Masses use the ferial tone too.
  • stulte
    Posts: 355
    Still and all -
    it's nice, isn't it, the sort of things that we have to complain about at Walsingham!


    Indeed, it is! Mind you, for myself I'm not complaining either. I'm just looking for what the Ordinariate's Missal calls for regarding when it's required and when it's optional to chant the readings and what the tones are.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    This should be a lesson to certain folk, and heartening to others who strive...
    When we sing the readings the lectors are swarmed after mass by those who were moved almost to tears at the beautiful way in which the sacred texts were chanted.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen tomjaw
  • Felipe Gasper
    Posts: 804
    Note that the drop of a 3rd in the RM3’s Old Testament tone is not specific to the English translation. You’ll find it in the Latin as well.

    Sung readings are wonderful when done well—but they can detract otherwise. Proceed with caution.
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