John McLaughlin funeral
  • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x87-TVsBVMI

    Ugh. Amplified cantor, and neither choir nor singing congregation.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW Ben
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Ugh, do we need to critique someone's funeral?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    bye-bye!
  • JonLaird
    Posts: 245
    It is impossible for a non-amplified singer to fill that space -- especially with the organ playing.

    A non-singing congregation is typical of Catholic funerals, and anyway whether they sing or not, the recording system there is not designed to pick up the congregation.

    The singer is Crossley Hawn, an acquaintance of mine, who is a lovely person and personally dedicated to authentic performance of chant and choral arts, as evidenced by her membership in the Washington Bach Consort and multiple acclaimed early music ensembles. She can sing just about anything you put in front of her from chant to Bach to Menotti, and sing it with beauty and sensitivity. If I had an opportunity to steal her away from the city to my humble suburban parish, I would do so in a heartbeat.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    "Atque in perpetuum, frater, ave atque vale."

    The eulogy by the great Pat Buchanan was very moving.
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  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,510
    I've mentioned several times on this forum that while the music as broadcast from the Shrine always sounds overbalanced towards the cantor, it simply doesn't sound that way in the vast space.

    You could lay the Washington Monument lengthwise in the Shrine. You could hit a home run straight down the center aisle. Place is yuuuuge.
    Thanked by 2BruceL Ben
  • Caleferink
    Posts: 434
    Just looking at it for the first time, the only critique I might have is whether or not this would have been better celebrated in the crypt church rather than the great upper church. It just looks like to me, just having seen this for the first time, that the number of people present for this could have fit (perhaps snugly) downstairs). The crypt church is as large size-wise as an average parish church. There's probably some other things at work here, though, that I'm not understanding. And yes, while on a broadcast the cantor sounds over-amplified, in person it is usually very well balanced. Microphones in that enormous space are pretty much a "necessary evil" even for those who really know how to project their voice.
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  • What I find ineffective about this isn’t the degree of amplification of the cantor or the quality of her singing, but what she is singing (and what no one else is singing). Better to have her chant an introit during the Entrance procession than a melody that better suits singing by a crowd. Likewise, better to have a gradual than the non-responsorial Responsorial Psalm.

    @Liam, I take the due degree of humble-pie for my overly brash initial post. Thank you. That said, high-profile funerals like this are public affairs that can and do affect local parishes. They ought to be done well.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Felipe

    The thing is, this really wasn't a high-profile funeral. It was public, but hardly rising to anything that would likely influence local parishes. It's a rare funeral that rises to that level.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,510
    I don't know why you would suggest that the congregation isn't singing. I see quite a few people singing the Entrance hymn.
  • @Kathy I heard nor saw none such … maybe just the broadcast.

    @Liam I disagree somewhat. Yeah, McLaughlin wasn’t a former president or some such, but his death was fairly “talked-about” as these things go, and it’s not unlikely that the same people who’d appreciate his work enough to pay attention to his funeral are also the sort who’d care about parish goings-on.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,510
    Felipe, the congregation is not miked, so naturally they cannot be heard. But surely you can see people holding their worship aids and singing.
    Thanked by 1Spriggo
  • I really did not. I looked during the entrance procession and the psalm and saw nothing. I’m trying to rewatch it now, but the hotel connection I have has apparently blocked streaming services.
  • Browser issue. @kathy, I just watched the entrance procession again. How many people’s mouths are moving that you see? I literally see none. I imagine I’m missing some, but it would seem to be few and far between regardless.
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  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    The acoustics of that vast space for such a small and sparsely sprinkled congregation do not favor robust congregational singing, so I take it as influential for nada. Then add the fact that funerals attract people who are often unfamiliar with the normal service music settings of a given place. Plus other things others have mentioned.

    I would be curious how many people viewed this people who would be in a position of influence and take this funeral as normative of anything.
    Thanked by 1BruceL
  • JahazaJahaza
    Posts: 470
    The video has been watched 16k times on Youtube. That's a lot more people than usually see a parish funeral Mass.

    "I would be curious how many people viewed this people who would be in a position of influence"

    Well, everyone's in a position of influence over their own behavior, which can be determined by what they experience of our worship. So Catholic funerals need to take Catholic belief and liturgical practice seriously, because they reflect our lived theology.

    There were oddities here beyond the music. There was incense at the beginning of Mass but no Gospel procession, despite there being a large number of assisting ministers.

    The casket was placed inside the sanctuary.

    There were four Communion ministers including an extraordinary minister of Holy Communion despite a) the presence of a priest who did not give Communion and b) Communion taking well less than 5 minutes.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    16K doesn't mean 16K people viewed the viedo as such. All it takes is landing on the page and having it load a bit.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,315
    Still, that’s quite a bit of people.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Not in terms of likely influence on parish funeral practice. That thesis remains speculative at best.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    16K doesn't mean 16K people viewed the viedo as such. All it takes is landing on the page and having it load a bit.


    It's worth noting that youtube's view counter is a bit smarter than simply pageloads. Google has said that they try to get a somewhat accurate view count, so it's actually not unreasonable to say that the video, or at least a significant part of it, was viewed around 16k times.
    Thanked by 1Jahaza
  • JonLaird
    Posts: 245
    Given the typical Catholic funeral, I would consider it immensely positive for more people to view this one. There are all sorts of entirely reasonable factors which could explain the things being nit-picked here. This thread must be one of the worst cases of petty curmudgeonly cheap shots I've seen here. While you all are scouring the video counting who's not singing, who is and isn't distributing communion, how many swings of the thurible there are, and worrying about how many people are being scandalized by these things -- are you at least praying for the man?
    Thanked by 1Spriggo
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    While you all are scouring the video counting who's not singing, who is and isn't distributing communion, how many swings of the thurible there are, and worrying about how many people are being scandalized by these things -- are you at least praying for the man?


    Indeed. Desiring proper worship of God in no way excludes prayers for the deceased, and having heard that accusation a lot lately (stop saying x negative thing about a problem and just pray about it), I'm kinda sick of it...
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  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    "how many people are being scandalized by these things"

    And just imagine how some people who attended that funeral might react if their attention were brought to this public discussion....
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Okay, from the video, I saw maybe half a dozen people singing the Entrance Hymn "O God Our Help In Ages Past" ... in the congregation already there, not those in the entrance procession. I also say several people singing the Antiphon of the Responsorial Psalm.

    Nice to hear Vaughan-Williams "The Call" sung as originally written.
    Thanked by 2KyleM18 chonak
  • redsox1
    Posts: 217
    I thought it was lovely. Beautiful singing by the cantor, particularly the elegant setting of Psalm 23. The Vaughan Williams was also beautifully sung. Having worked at the Shrine, I can attest to the fact that it is a real challenge to make music in that space, particularly trying to create an intimate setting for a small gathering. The cantor ALWAYS sounds more present televised than in the space.

    Everyone has their own opinions, and I suppose certain details could be questioned, but I feel this liturgy reflected well on our Church! We should be pleased to have so many people, Catholic and non-Catholic, viewing this.
    Thanked by 1Spriggo
  • Maybe I should have clarified the point of this original post, i.e., to discuss the music at this service, and the music merely. That does not imply any denigration of McLaughlin or detract from the spiritual significance of the funeral itself. It goes without saying—for the Catholics here, anyhow—that one ought to pray for McLaughlin’s soul.

    Notwithstanding maybe the priest not distributing communion, I don’t think anything here was in the realm of “scandal”, though I do think there were some logistically and ritually poor choices. The music for the responsorial psalm was very nice, yes (is it published?) … but aesthetic value is not the end-all-be-all of good liturgy, and I maintain that having a responsorial psalm at a “one-time” service like a funeral (or wedding) when the congregation won’t actually sing is imprudent.

    @Liam: The fact that funerals attract people who don’t often attend such a service is precisely the point: why plan music that suits a singing congregation when you don’t have one? As to whether the people there would be offended: by that logic, would it ever be proper to question liturgical choices for a funeral?

    @CHGiffen: I see people glancing down at their programs, but no mouths moving except the cantor’s.
    Thanked by 2Ben a_f_hawkins
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Felipe

    "As to whether the people there would be offended: by that logic, would it ever be proper to question liturgical choices for a funeral?"

    Not without more care and discretion.
    Thanked by 1Spriggo
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I honestly don't see the problem... a musician forum discusses music at public musical events no one is out of line, or calling the deceased names. People are talking about the music selected.
    Thanked by 1a_f_hawkins
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,315
    The funeral is precisely when the Gradual and Gregorian Alleluia should be sung. I would also make that case for weddings too.
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    I am very surprised this funeral was not held in the crypt church. It was a person of some importance, but this isn't a congregation the size you'd have for, say, Scalia.
    Thanked by 1Ben
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Ben

    That you don't see the problem is evidence of the problem, which is a lack of thoughtfulness. Funerals are highly personal events for the family and loved ones, even more charged than nuptials given the emotions and liminal associations involved. Public discussions even limited to the musical selections and performance can wind their way to those who attended the event (not just those who chose and performed the music). While you might not care when a funeral of a loved one of yours proved to be grist for such a discussion, I can assure you that many other people would not necessarily be so sanguine.
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    I understand this feeling, Liam, but there's more than a little irony that we're discussing the merits of discussing the funeral of a man who was known for facilitating discussion...
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    When planning my wife's funeral I knew I could find no one to lead the Latin propers or ordinaries I would have liked, or indeed any other decent liturgical music. I also knew that there would be a high proportion of non-Catholics and a good number of members of the two choirs to which she belonged. So I went for four-hymn sandwich, and was pleased, and supported, by the volume of participation.
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Bruce

    Oh, I totally get the recursive nature of that and this, and my critique of critique. That said, what the deceased may have appreciated is not necessarily the same as what his surviving family and loved ones would appreciate.

    Death and funerals open a time where individual people are vulnerable. (The wearing of mourning as a sign that they were potentially vulnerable had a practical purpose so that people knew to have extra care and discretion in what they said around them.) The ease of expression and discussion on the Internet can make people oblivious to fact that they can be read and heard by people who are not partaking of the conversation - and for many years thereafter.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    @Felipe

    20:32 (one, in blue)
    21:17-19 (two: white haired gent on aisle, lady with glasses on right)
    21:46 (two: lady in dark red, gent next to her)
    22:08 (three: lady in light blue on left, same white haired gent on aisle, gent behind lady with glasses on right)

    29:17 (several singing the response)
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    a_f_hawkins, my sympathy for your great loss. When my father-in-law passed away, he specifically requested a traditional Requiem Mass and burial, so my husband and I and some friends sang the Mass and the Burial Service. It was pretty challenging, but we somehow made it through. One of our friends knows the chants almost from memory, having sung them as a child in France when she lived with her relatives in the summers decades ago so we were fortunate to have her help. She said the old men of the French village customarily sang the Requiem Mass at funerals, and she learned to sing with them when she was living there.
    Thanked by 1a_f_hawkins
  • WGS
    Posts: 300
    As to a priest's neglecting to distribute Communion except for "when the priest is impeded by illness or advanced age ...", consider the Church's comment in Inaestimabile donum in 1980.

    10) "Accordingly, a reprehensible attitude is shown by those priests who, though present at the celebration, refrain from distributing Communion and leave this task to the laity."
    Thanked by 1BruceL