Are the simple tones of the Marian Antiphons "Vatican Edition" ?
  • JonathanKKJonathanKK
    Posts: 542
    Everyone knows that the four seasonal final Marian antiphons at Compline come in both a solemn tone and a simple tone; these two complementary forms are always presented in the Solesmes editions.

    However, in the Antiphonale (1912), which as the Vatican Edition is the real deal, the simple tones are nowhere to be found.

    Likewise, the simple tones do not appear in the Vesperale Romanus (1913).

    Another bit of evidence is that in this Liber Usualis Officii (1913), the Marian antiphons "In Cantu Simplici" are subtitled Ex libris Solesmensibus, which designation is usually found when the chants in question are in fact not taken from the Vatican Edition.

    Then there is also the point that it is never really specified whether the use of the solemn or simple tones ought to depend on the rank of the feast. The FSSP's compline book says in its notes on ceremonial that "It is customary to use the solemn tone on Saturday and Sunday and on first class feasts, and the simple tone at other times; however, this may be varied." But even this rare bit of advice is written in such a way as practically admits that there is not a hard and fast rule.

    It seems possible, in theory, that the simple tones were maybe added to the Antiphonale in 1919, but this doesn't sound likely to me; and unless this is the case, it looks like the simple tones of the Marian Antiphons aren't really "Vatican Edition".
  • rarty
    Posts: 96
    You're right, they aren't in the Vatican Edition books, and there isn't really anything besides Solesmes' labels simple and solemn that indicates a preferred occasion.

    But to be fair, despite the Antiphonale Romanum, the Marian antiphon at Compline/Vespers is/was supposedly still to be said in the same way as the Confiteor: voce recta et paulisper depressa, or sung on one low note (cf. Caeremoniale episcoporum, Fortescue). So since that is generally (and acceptably) ignored, I suppose some more variety isn't much of an issue.

    Also, the AR has another (simpler) melody of the Regina Caeli, which is apparently the original, used at the office of Our Lady on Saturday and the Little Office.
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  • JonathanKKJonathanKK
    Posts: 542
    Are there other cases like this where there exist obscure rubrics calling for recto tono in places where the usual chant books actually give tunes instead?

    E.g. I remember hearing something about ferial vespers being done recto tono, but can't ever seem to track down what exactly the bit of information that I'd heard was.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,319
    Jonathan, we had discussed that here, in the context of what is in the Liber Usualis vs. the Antiphonale Romanum. Ferial Vespers could easily be sung from a diurnale or other form of the breviary, if one did not have enough AR’s. But I don’t think that is rubrically necessary.

    I wonder if the Marian antiphon was sung that way after Lauds (or the last hour sung immediately after Lauds) prior to the reforms of the 1950s & 1960s
    Thanked by 1JonathanKK
  • JonathanKKJonathanKK
    Posts: 542
    Ah! - I was just about to message you.

    So, you were saying that folks would do such things for convenience, but not because they were obliged to do so by the rubrics.

  • igneusigneus
    Posts: 390
    The question of origin of the Salve Regina "tonus simplex" is interesting for me, too.

    The Vatican Antiphonary (pp. 127-8) gives the revised official or "typical" form of the melody (first tone). The now unofficial "Ratisbon" edition gave the melody in an ornate and in a simple form, together with a setting which it described as being in the eleventh tone, and which is also very beautiful. (The Catholic Encyclopedia: Salve Regina)


    I've checked some 19th and 18th century antiphonaries/vesperals available at Google Books and a 19th century in Ratisbon/Regensburg printed vesperal in my posession. Results:
    1. I haven't found any book from that period printed outside of Regensburg that would contain a tonus simplex for Salve Regina. (All have a single tone, in mode 1.)
    2. the Ratisbon vesperal matches the description given in The Catholic Encyclopedia. It contains three Salve Regina tones: ornate one in modes 1-2; simplex in mode 1 (less melismatic, not reaching in the depths); simplex in "mode 11", similar, but not identical to the mode 5 tonus simplex most common today.
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  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,187
    Why do you call it mode XI instead of mode XIII? Is a final ti theoretically excluded?
  • JonathanKKJonathanKK
    Posts: 542
    By the way, have you seen the mode 3 Salve Regina here on p. 126?

    There are also notes in the back about the origins of the three Salve's given.
    Thanked by 1igneus
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    For Reference

    Ratisbon = Vatican
    I = I
    II = II (final on D)
    III = III
    IV = IV
    V = V (final on F)
    VI = VI
    VII = VII
    VIII = VIII
    IX = I (transposed, final on A)
    X = II (transposed, final on A)
    XI = V (transposed, final on C)
    XII = VI (transposed, final on C)
    Thanked by 4CHGiffen Andrew_Malton igneus madorganist
  • JonathanKKJonathanKK
    Posts: 542
    I just noticed that with the Antiphonale 1949, although the simple tones are included, they appear mostly on pages 69^1 and 69^2, which appear between pages 69 and 70; this seems to indicate that, at some point, a previous edition did not include these chants.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,319
    The simplex tone for the Salve must have come much later, because it has no relationship to the solemn tone…
  • igneusigneus
    Posts: 390
    Directorium chori sive brevis psalmodiae ratio ad usum presbyterorum Congregationis Oratorii D.N.J.C., Paris 1753, p. 24 has something very similar to our mode 5 tonus simplex:
    https://books.google.cz/books?id=iDXwOdkUYfEC&pg=PA24#v=onepage&q&f=false
    Thanked by 4JonathanKK smvanroode Salieri shawnk
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