Pater Noster
  • bwhitmore
    Posts: 5
    How often, in your experience, is the Pater Noster (when sung in Latin at OF Masses) accompanied by the organ?
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    1 in 20.
    Thanked by 1BruceL
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,315
    The only time I ever heard it accompanied is at the papal audience. My experience is that it simply tends to slow to nearly a snail’s pace, but that the congregation, if it does not hold deeply entrenched beliefs about Latin, will easily learn it...
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,799
    Never accompanied; at St David's never in Latin.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Pater Noster -- accompanied -- in Latin --- at OF Masses.....

    (computing)....

    (computing)......

    Never.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    How often, in your experience, is the Pater Noster (when sung in Latin at OF Masses) [...] ?


    To this (*fixed) question, I have to say: Never.
    Thanked by 1Casavant Organist
  • Elmar
    Posts: 506
    How often, in your experience, is the Pater Noster (when sung in Latin at OF Masses) accompanied by the organ?

    Always; i.e., twice per month im my home parish, and once per month in the church where I am choir director now.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    It is my studied observation that using the organ for the Our Father or any other chant, in Latin or English, makes a small, if any, difference. (And, I'm really not saying this as a rant against accompanying chant.) It seems to me that there is little if any better singing by the people when the organ is playing the chant. What is happening is that the organ is providing more sound in greater volume, which gives people the impression that they are singing better. They really aren't. They just think they are because of the sound of the organ. It's all psychological. If one really listens, he will discern little difference vis a vis presence or absence of organ. I realise that others here will disagree. This remark is purely analytical of organ-singing relationships in chant. It is not addressing the question, pro- or con-, regarding the musical and academic propriety of such accompaniment.

    On a purely personal level, I can say that I consciously sing less heartily on chant when it is being accompanied by the organ. To me, personally, the organ is a spoiler. And I say this, too, purely as an observation of voice vs organ in chant, NOT as pro- or con- regarding the appropriateness or lack of. That, I think, is another issue than with which we are concerned on this thread.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    Okay so I'm EF not OF Latin. But when I've played OF English I can say the best experiences are when the organ does not play this... AND when the priest can lead the singing beautifully. The first priest I played organ for in OF masses I believe has the nicest voice and sings the our father so beautifully and in tune that no organ is necessary or wanted. I'm yet to meet a clergyman that can do a better job.
    And in both forms it is better if the organ doesn't accompany any chant at all, though I don't mind the credo or occasional celebratory Gloria. I even think it is nice to omit a verse or two when hymn singing is done but only with a good choir of four or more parts.
    I reckon organ spoils vespers too.
    In the right acoustic organ is not needed for chant. At all.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,022
    We never accompany the Pater Noster at EF High Mass because everyone knows it, actually both Ferial and Solemn tones. We do chant it at the OF Masses during Advent, and do accompany it, quietly, on the organ because that crowd is not familiar with it. We never chant it in English.
    Thanked by 1CCooze
  • Casavant Organist
    Posts: 805
    Only said at our parish, I don't think I have ever been to a church where it is sung.
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,933
    Holy Rosary, Indianapolis (EF) congregation sings the entire prayer in Latin. Unaccompanied. Then again, the priest who introduced the custom has a booming, operatic voice, so there was no need for it.
  • OlivierOlivier
    Posts: 58
    We never accompany the Pater Noster at EF High Mass because everyone knows it, actually both Ferial and Solemn tones.

    But at an E.F. high mass it's only sung by the priest, right? People can join (if it's the local custom) at a low mass only, right? This was something from 1958 IIRC?
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,315
    Well, the response is sometimes accompanied, and Stimson's schola got a death glare from me, who wasn’t told that was the custom (contra legem & contra traditionem) at his parish to sing the entire prayer. I was MC. :P
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,933
    You've been Dialogue Massed, Roth.

    image

    (We'll be sure to accommodate for Mary Magdalene and NOT sing the full Pater - if Magdalene's still happening?)
    Thanked by 1Ben
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700

    But at an E.F. high mass it's only sung by the priest, right? People can join (if it's the local custom) at a low mass only, right? This was something from 1958 IIRC?



    From the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, No. 40/97, 26th March, 1997:

    2.a) This Pontifical Commission sees no difficulty in the celebrant and ministers joining in the singing of the plainchant Gloria and Credo together with the schola cantorum and the congregation instead of reading them privately as directed by the Ritus Servandus. This usage was already admitted by the Church a relatively short time after the publication of the 1962 Roman Missal. The same holds true, mutatis mutandis for the Missa Cantata.

    b) This Pontifical Commission sees no difficulty in the entire congregation's singing of the Pater Noster in all sung Masses.
    Thanked by 3StimsonInRehab Olivier BruceL
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,315
    Course, the PCED doesn’t tell you where the ministers need to stand if the deacon is to go the longer way, up to the middle of the praedella, to bring the burse to the altar when there is a Credo. Otherwise the subdeacon takes it. It would be bizarre to sit if the ministers haven’t finished. They also ignore that this is the tradition since Gregory the Great. French monasteries with their 1965 accretions (sung Secret, Per Ipsum, omitting the prayers at the foot after Terce) are one thing, but 1962 or earlier is the norm elsewhere, and this really opens the floodgates to a celebrant doing other things the Novus Ordo way... And if you say this is trad paranoia, I can only say I’ve been there already.
    Thanked by 2Yosef Jahaza
  • Bobby Bolin
    Posts: 420
    We chant it in Latin at one mass every weekend but never accompany it.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    We have one priest who sings it and one who never sings it. I don't accompany it, but give a beginning pitch and the pitch for the second part. Otherwise, the priest would have us all singing out of our ranges. It is never in Latin, either spoken or sung.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    In all my EF experience (pre- and post-VatII) it has never been accompanied.

    However, some European monasteries have a custom of organ-accompaniment which is explained thus: "The organ (here) represents ALL of Creation musically praising the Father".

    Interesting thought.
    Thanked by 2Steve Collins Casavant Organist
  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 708
    In my early choir days there were many instances where the organ was used for both Latin and English for the Pater Noster . This was done to keep it from becoming to slow but mostly to keep the choir and congregation together. If your choir loft is situated in the back of the church some distance from the altar as it was at St. Mary, there is more than likely a delay from the main altar to the choir loft however slight, so it makes good sense to use the organ.
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