Women Singing In Schola/Propers
  • At our recent (just last week) choral workshop and evensong at Walsinghm we had, in a group of about forty, three or four male altos. It is remarkable the difference in brilliance, what Julie calls sparkle, they made in the alto line. It had a definition that would not have been there otherwise.

    Please do understand that I am not wishing to short shrift our wonderful women's voices. But since this was brought up by Sponsa it is apt to stress that men's and women's voices, even when they share a vocal register are quite distinct. A male alto is not 'singing like a lady' (nor does he remotely sound like one!), nor is a lady tenor 'singing like a man' (or remotely sound like one). These voices are unique in colour, they are a distinct species of timbre.

    What I said above about the male altos who sang in our workshop making a defining difference in the alto line, I could say as well about lady tenors who sing with men. The presence of these two vocal colours in any choir will make a defining difference in the sound of that choir. It is something to glory in, not thoughtlessly to think of as something odd. There is also a certain magical transformation that takes place when boys sing with the sopranos.

    (I might add that, in some cultures, the registers that we associate (cultivate) with men and women are very different. Peking opera and Japanese music come to mind. Also, I once had in a choir a gentleman from somewhere in the Levant who sang treble in what we would call the male alto register. He literally could not 'sing like a man' of our culture, and explained that all men in his culture sang that way. His voice was unique and quite beautiful, sort of a cross between the male alto and a boy soprano in our culture.)
    Thanked by 3JulieColl jefe CHGiffen
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    A fascinating explanation! I will keep my ears open for vocal colors, MJO.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • jefe
    Posts: 200
    JES,
    Castratti? Yikes! 8<) Our 12 member compline choir has 6 counter tenors, 2 tenors, 2 baritones, 2 basses. None are Castratti (to my knowledge). Of course, 3 of the counter tenors are baritones with that 'freak' trained falsetto. They can put out a lot of controllable sound up to about treble top line f.The other 3 are just young, in the 18-24 yr. old range that don't even need to sing falsetto. One fine 20 year old is the best cantor we've ever had. Oh that sizzling hot and thin, whining tone. Almost all of these fine lads are instrumentalists of some kind, which I find a real plus for sight reading. I've found by default that 'real singers' with a big, wobbly, vibrato ridden voice tend to poison the Compline well. In addition, 'non-real' singers tend to get that slightly soggy/softer, authentic ' monastic' sound for the final Office of the day; also a plus. When we began 7 yrs. and 85 Complines ago, we used mostly women on the alto part with men on the bottom T, Bar, B. parts. Still, we always needed many more of them to balance the tenors and basses. When Voces was formed, all but one of the women migrated over to the all-women choir. Who are all those counter tenors? see pic below. All are squeezed into our tiny 162 yr. old loft. Osborn may think that's an awfully short time, given his position, but this is California, where ancient history is 2 years ago. I would like to repeat:<br />Nothing musically in my lifetime has meant as much as chanting the Office of Compline. Not playing hundreds of film scores in Hollywood with all the biggies; Not my full professorship at Long Beach State; not those 22K services with the L.A. Phil; not conducting the Moravian Choir for 35 years; not forming and running the Moravian Trombone Choir (SATB). Maybe all this was a setup for me getting into Compline. Late Night Prayer is the perfect worship service. It always means something. Short. Humble. Mystical. Clergy-free. As close as you can get to facing your God and your own mortality in a kind of trial run to eternity. Just your voices worshipping The Triune God. The cantor is in the front row, right:
    jefe
    compline201412.JPG
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  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Congratulations! What an amazing group. This makes my day. My son would love to be in your choir. He takes his singing very seriously, and I often wonder if his large vocal range and flexibility is partly the result of him being a track athlete, since it seems as if the breathing and muscular control enables him to do more.

    This is also a significant comment about vocal quality. I'm very partial to the "monastic" sound as opposed to the more operatic sound, esp. in polyphony and chant.

    'real singers' with a big, wobbly, vibrato ridden voice tend to poison the Compline well. In addition, 'non-real' singers tend to get that slightly soggy/softer, authentic ' monastic' sound for the final Office of the day; also a plus.
    Thanked by 1jefe
  • JL
    Posts: 171
    I might add that, in some cultures, the registers that we associate (cultivate) with men and women are very different.

    Western Europe has gone through something of an evolution on this front as well--in the Italian opera of the 17th and early 18th centuries. High voices (what we would think of as soprano or mezzo ranges) were for heroic or noble characters (Handel's Julius Caesar is a mezzo--or a countertenor), and low voices were for comic and vulgar characters (including a few tenor and bass bawdy maidservants.) Tenors could be heroes, but were often villains. The high-voice roles could be--and were--sung by women or men (some castrati, but many not. There are many fine countertenors and a few male sopranists about today.) At the same time, nuns were writing SATB motets for performance within the enclosure, and there are records of nuns (though probably not very many) who sang tenor and bass. Our current concept of "manly" and "womanly" sound is of fairly recent vintage.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    Historically in England (Sarum) the choir including boys were made up of clerics and so women / girls did not normally sing at Mass. Of course convents particularly enclosed one's, would have had female choirs.

    Since then it has gradually become normal both in secular and liturgical settings to have mixed choirs and in churches the choir has been moved from its liturgical position on the Sanctuary to a choir loft.

    From comments made at the various places we sing,
    1. Some people prefer the Propers to be sung by men.
    2. A majority like when the Men and women of our choir alternate.
    3. A small number dislike polyphony and prefer chant.
    4. An even smaller number dislike men and women chanting the propers in unison.

    At our E.F. Masses we do have problems with having a mixed choir as sometimes say the Easter Vigil at Vespers, or Tenebrae, we need to have cantors / lectors on the sanctuary. In some cases we end up having the men singing from the Sanctuary, which can lead to some of the ladies feeling excluded... But most understand.

    I do not see why we cannot have male only choirs, female only choirs and mixed choirs...
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,315
    Does anyone else feel certain chants sound better in certain registers? Mode I Introits with the classic mode I melody get lost to my ears when sung in a high register, but women sing the Salve Sancta Parens better IMHO. I agree with tomjaw...
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  • jefe
    Posts: 200
    MR,
    I'm with you. Not only certain registers but certain keys. A poor key for my men is C major or minor or mode keynote C. It is so lifeless with no resonance. If I raise the piece, depending, up a half step to keynote Db or C#, or even down to B, a half step lower, the sound is somehow completely different. The character is different. It's my job to find the one that fits best for us. I've found for our women (SSAT), unison chant in the medium low register has quite a good resonance, quasi Convent sound. One of the benefits of a music program (Sibelius in this case) is the ability to, at will, transpose up or down and hear it. This gives some indication of how it's going to sound with voices, but It's not the whole story, compared to actual voices. We use Mode I a lot during Lent and keep the register lower than usual to 'pump' the more introspective Lenten feel. The opposite is true during the Easter season. Even with absolute pitch, I'm many times fooled just looking at the score as far as color and resonance. 3 of our men have absolute pitch, but none are tuned to the same exact frequency, (one flat, two sharp) and they don't necessarily do a good job for us, compared to some with relative pitch. AFA male/ female choirs, the men don't mind a bit if we need some female altos on the top voice, but when I suggested we add one light male tenor for one Compline, the Ladies of the Quire answered with a resounding, "Oh, no you don't." Far be it for me to invade their space. I'm thinking there is a certain identity thing going on here. 2 examples of register manipulation below:
    jefe
    Ave Regina caelorum,.pdf
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    Hoc corpus chant_altos.pdf
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